9mm instead of 5.56 for HD

[FireForged]

While I can understand training situations with someone attempting to grab your rifle, I can't understand a situation where you are ending up in a wrestling match over your rifle. If you failed to shoot someone trying to grab your firearm, you screwed up and probably need to find another line of work.

If you do not accept how easy it is for things to get all upside down in lone self defense action, I cant probably cant explain it.

People do not train in weapons retention techniques because CQB is a ballet, its not. A guy with a rifle is not magically protected from a physical struggle by virtue of the fact that he is armed. A guy with a rifle and bayonet never got knocked down, disarmed or overpowered, right? People mess up, people are sometimes out matched, out maneuvered, out numbered, ambushed and a million other things. We are human, it happens. A person can either take steps to mitigate the potential for such a dilemma or not. I accept that fighting is risky business and I simply try to eliminate a much unnecessary difficulties which might also allow me to exploit certain conditions in my own favor.

[101combatvet]

Originally Posted by FireForged

If you do not accept how easy it is for things to get all upside down in lone self defense action, I cant probably cant explain it.

People do not train in weapons retention techniques because CQB is a ballet, its not. A guy with a rifle is not magically protected from a physical struggle by virtue of the fact that he is armed. A guy with a rifle and bayonet never got knocked down, disarmed or overpowered, right? People mess up, people are sometimes out matched, out maneuvered, out numbered, ambushed and a million other things. We are human, it happens. A person can either take steps to mitigate the potential for such a dilemma or not. I accept that fighting is risky business and I simply try to eliminate a much unnecessary difficulties which might also allow me to exploit certain conditions in my own favor.

Explain a situation where this would likely happen. Some guy trying to clear a building with multiple rooms?

[BCR1]

Originally Posted by jmr40

Typical 12 ga buckshot loads are comparable to 300 WM rifle recoil.

I've never fired a 300, but I have shot many a high brass 00 buck out of my 590 and it's a cupcake compared to my Finn M91 using 174 grain yellow tip FMJ. Just sayin.

Bill

[JohnKSa]

Weapon retention is certainly a valid topic for T&T and one where the choice of long gun vs. handgun makes a difference.

I've deleted some posts, not because they were off topic but because the exchange wasn't productive.

The goal of T&T is to exchange ideas, to provide information and to share the benefit of training and experience. Not to exchange one-liners and sarcasm.

[shurshot]

Keeping rats and squirrels from my feeders and the occasional woodchuck or rabbit from my veggies, I use various toys, from slingshots, recurve bows and airguns, up to rifles & handguns... all out my kitchen window. Most of the time, the muzzle is slowly pushed outside the window, so the sound doesn't bother me much at all.

With one particularly skittish varmint, I stood further back inside covered in the shadows, the muzzle of my .22 rifle well inside the window frame, and shot offhand. The noise was deafening and my ears rang for days.

I cannot imagine how loud and damaging to the ears a 9mm or .357 would be inside a dwelling, much less a .223!

[JustJake]

With one particularly skittish varmint, I stood further back inside covered in the shadows, the muzzle of my .22 rifle well inside the window frame, and shot offhand. The noise was deafening and my ears rang for days.
I cannot imagine how loud and damaging to the ears a 9mm or .357 would be inside a dwelling, much less a .223!

Correct, ... which is the purpose of running a weapon suppressed if there's any likelihood you'll be touching it off inside a home, apartment, or other structure.

[FireForged]

yep.. I have a close friend that ND'd a 357 in his hallway. He said he had to sit down on the floor for about 20 minutes. He said that he was experiencing something like vertigo and could not walk or stand. He said that if here were having to fight an intruder, he would have been up crap creek.

Certainly there are many things that come into play when dealing with sound pressure but concerns over db and discharging firearms indoors are no joke.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by shurshot

With one particularly skittish varmint, I stood further back inside covered in the shadows, the muzzle of my .22 rifle well inside the window frame, and shot offhand. The noise was deafening and my ears rang for days.

I cannot imagine how loud and damaging to the ears a 9mm or .357 would be inside a dwelling, much less a .223!

From my own experience (which I’ll caveat by saying it was a single shot in the different events), my ears didn’t ring for days from a 9mm+P fired from a 3.5”-4” barrel. My ears didn’t really ring at all. What I had was short term hearing loss, in the matter of say a minute or two with the loss tapering as time went by. It was as if everything was muffled. Within a few minutes my hearing seemed fine, though my ears hurt for the afternoon (as I mentioned earlier I do have some hyperacusis). Again, in a defensive situation if you have to fire multiple shots this may be cumulative.

In the event you can’t hear someone such as first responders showing up or entering the dwelling this hearing loss could be very problematic. There was a sad story a few years back of a grandfather that fought off a home intruder who was attempting to rape and drown his grandson. The grandfather retrieved a firearm and shot the assailant. Afterwards the grandfather didn’t hear the responding officer ordering him to drop the firearm. The officer shot and killed the grandfather (who was normally hard of hearing and had sustained a blow to the head in the event in addition to the noise from the shooting). Beyond the long term damage to your hearing there can also be immediate repercussions of hearing loss.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/no-charges-officer/


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[FireForged]

-

Explain a situation where this would likely happen. Some guy trying to clear a building with multiple rooms?

In numerous circumstances where a person may have a child, children or other vulnerable family members in the home that is currently invaded by a bad-guy or ( bad-guys)

In numerous circumstances where another family member may have engaged an intruder and you are coming to their aid vs an unknow number of bad-guys.

In numerous circumstance where a defender is lured from a position of advantage to a position of disadvantage via subterfuge.

In numerous circumstances where a person who is currently in a defendable position of advantage but is forced to move or flee due to encroaching danger such as fire, smoke, being overrun, fired upon, being flanked or having to retreat due to injury.

So pretty much anything that might require a person to move within a hostile environment when they otherwise would have wanted to stay put. Its not a foreign concept. Sometimes its not as easy as simply saying "im gonna stay right here at the corner of this bookcase".

[Mulebuk Mojo]

In a defensive encounter I'm not so sure you will be concern about hearing loss.

Originally Posted by Hawg

A short barreled 12 gauge is a better choice than either of them.

Cook up the right load and you can even limit over penetration. It is the ultimate home defense tool. The younger crowd out of the military over the last 25 years or so came out with the mind-set of an AR and of course those who came up on video games.

The other big thing is they are afraid of recoil.


I handroll my own buckshot loads that hit like a sledge hammer and yet as easy to shoot as my pocket 9mm.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Mulebuk Mojo

I handroll my own buckshot loads that hit like a sledge hammer and yet as easy to shoot as my pocket 9mm.

This would seem to defy the laws of physics. If something is easy to shoot, I.E. less recoil, then it should also have less effect on target. Of course then again some very small 9mms can have quite a bit of recoil depending on the load.


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[Mulebuk Mojo]

Good observation there.

My load may not take down a Grizz but I have little doubt it is not effective. The Big difference is I run a 12-15 pellet load, that means with every pull of the trigger I have that many chances to stop the threat. And it only takes one hit in the right place.

I only wish I could carry and conceal it. My pocket 9mm is solely a 'get off me affair' as I can't shoot worth a crap. At 30 feet (note feet not yards I get a 6-9 inch spread)

When 'ole buck-a-roo lands you gonna know it. And I use steel slingshot ammo that doesn't deform like lead does.



This post has been edited by the staff to remove off-topic comments.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Mulebuk Mojo

Good observation there. However let us not get to wrap up in the science as we have all discovered by now with the voodoo injections masquerading as vaccines.

I don’t eschew science entirely because of the failures of some epidemiologists. Not all fields of science are the same. Newtonian physics is fairly well understood.

My point was simply there is no free lunch when it comes to ballistic effect on target. If you want a projectile capable of stopping a person you’re going to have deal with some recoil. These days there are a number of manufacturers making low recoil buckshot for those that can’t roll their own. If my 5’ wife can handle it, most people can. There are still ways in which I might prefer an AR, but a shotgun is certainly effective.


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[Mulebuk Mojo]

I roll my own because there are no factory made loads I can handle. I got the math down to a science for myself. I know what pound force and recoil impulse I can tolerate. And even in my prime I could never handle factory buckshot.

You're way off about the free lunch, if I was a better shot I would shoot .223/5.56 there's hardly any recoil and those rounds will take down anything if you are a marksman's and most aren't.
Most who shoot it is princely because it has low recoil.

The key is just speed, think Bruce Lee at a 125 pounds soaking wet.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Mulebuk Mojo

I roll my own because there are no factory made loads I can handle. I got the math down to a science for myself. I know what pound force and recoil impulse I can tolerate. And even in my prime I could never handle factory buckshot.

You're way off about the free lunch, if I was a better shot I would shoot .223/5.56 there's hardly any recoil and those rounds will take down anything if you are a marksman's and most aren't.
Most who shoot it is princely because it has low recoil.

The key is just speed, think Bruce Lee at a 125 pounds soaking wet.

I have both full size rifles and SBRs in 5.56. There is still recoil. Is it a lot? What is a lot? Is it the same as my 03-A3 in 30-06? Not at all, but there is still recoil and concussion there that a person will notice. You still need to have technique to control it and shoot it well.


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[Mulebuk Mojo]

Yeah, good luck with your technique. I'm not a Clint Smith or James Yeager graduate.

I'm simply gonna let 'ole buck-a-roo take face off.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Mulebuk Mojo

Yeah, good luck with your technique. I'm not a Clint Smith or James Yeager graduate.

I'm simply gonna let 'ole buk-a-roo take face off.

Technique can be learned for rifles or shotguns. Becoming more effective with a firearm is a good thing both in terms of stopping a threat and reducing collateral damage to other persons and property. Professional users of firearms train for a reason.


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[TunnelRat]

I have no issue with someone using a shotgun for home defense. I also have no issue with someone using an AR15 or a 9mm in either pistol or carbine form. I think all of them can be effective and all of us have to evaluate what works for our own needs. These needs vary by our own physical limitations, experience, and layouts of our homes. I’ve put quite a bit of thought into what I do and why. As for my age, I’m not as young as I once was.

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[FireForged]

In a defensive encounter I'm not so sure you will be concern about hearing loss.

sound pressure can do funky things to a human being, especially at the onset of exposure. Its not always about the potential for measurable hearing loss. I will gladly exchange some loss of hearing to dominate a deadly threat but at the same time, there is some wisdom in the idea of mitigating negative forces to the degree you can reasonably achieve. Those mitigations should probably be thought out and put into place well before the unwelcomed condition ( danger) has manifested.

So essentially, its not really as easy as simply suggesting that a person may not be concerned about hearing loss. There are larger concepts involved

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Mulebuk Mojo

Lol ! ___ like rehab or religion, the last bastion of a scoundrel

Who knew ..

I say it because you’ve been a member for three days and may be unaware. Yes the moderators remove comments that become personal. The goal here is to avoid making it personal. If you would like to discuss with me personally there are private messages that can be sent. This keeps the topic threads clear of unnecessary distraction.


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[Aguila Blanca]

Posts have been removed from this discussion.

Keep it on topic, and keep it civil.

[Lima Oscar 7]

Thinking ahead on these matters is a good thing. My hearing is damaged from close quarter firing of 5.56, 7.62, 7.62 x 39, 9mm, .45 ACP and 12 Ga. I “ feel “ 5.56 and .45ACP in my bones in a confined area. 7.62 out of a short barrel can jar the teeth as well. For some reason, the 9mm and 7.62 x 39 don’t jar me as much. In the heat of the moment you may not notice it but sooner or later you will. Short barrel 7.62’s knock me for a loop. I am betting a .357 would too. I am not too far off from hearing aids as it is.

As far as HD, I am very fond of a simple and I hope soon the be available again option: Remington 870 Express Youth Model with both slugs and buck shot. They are handy and can be used by almost everyone.

[44 AMP]

One of the biggest dis-services done by movies, TV and video games is "teaching" people the wrong things about the sound of gunfire, and especially in enclosed spaces.

All kinds of weapons, piatols, shotguns, rifles, and up through grenades and other explosives are fired inside rooms, hallways, CARS! and other enclosed spaces and then right afterwards the ACTORS (none of whom is ever wearing hearing protection) have conversations in normal tones of voice, or sometimes even whisper, and are perfectly understood. NO ONE goes deaf (even temporarily) which is not what happens in the real world. Not even close.

Suppressors would seem an obvious solution, but they're costly, not legal everywhere, and if you find a prosecutor who won't claim the reason you have a "silencer" on your gun is so you can commit murder and get away with it, then you've found a rare individual in that office.

Also, putting on muffs or earplugs is likewise used as "evidence" of premeditation, and that argument is used to negate "self defense" all too often in court.

remember that no matter how it is officially described, the real function of a jury is to decide which side has the better liar in court.....

[Mulebuk Mojo]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Also, putting on muffs or earplugs is likewise used as "evidence" of premeditation, and that argument is used to negate "self defense" all too often in court.

Good point 44, never looked at that but you are spot on. A lot people are in prison for what they thought was justified use of deadly force and some were right.

There is a sad case just a few years ago out of Maine. Shot the guy 4x with a .380 to 'stop the threat'. The prosecutor was able to paint it that he used aggressive force that was unnecessary and his overworked underpaid and simply don't care public defender never picked up on it that what he did was in fact the correct procedure.


When he was sentence the Judge told him I hate to do this, but I have no choice, he knew what the prosecutor had done.

72 years old, whole life on the straight and narrow, worked, retired paid his tax's, played the game by all the rules etc.
25 years to life, a dead man walking.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Suppressors would seem an obvious solution, but they're costly, not legal everywhere, and if you find a prosecutor who won't claim the reason you have a "silencer" on your gun is so you can commit murder and get away with it, then you've found a rare individual in that office.

Also, putting on muffs or earplugs is likewise used as "evidence" of premeditation, and that argument is used to negate "self defense" all too often in court.

These are points I’ve heard brought up before, but do you have specific examples we can use as references of this happening?


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