September 26, 2017, 02:24 PM | #26 | |
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There's one more: the "threat target" are almost always stationary. |
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September 27, 2017, 06:14 AM | #27 |
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Many times in a physical confrontation, when your opponent is going for a concealed weapon, then you go for yours, you are at a disadvantage, you are playing catch up.
Stepping in, not back, and punching to the throat gives you the advantage back. Really hard to access a pistol, when you can not breathe! A good program on my TV COPS. Some very good pro Officers, but one tactic I have seen over and over, the Officer exits his vehicle, and instantly draws his/her pistol? The most important hand, is tied up holding a gun? If a person grapples with the Officer, especially impaired with drugs, or alcohol, there is every chance of losing their pistol or shoots some drunk teen, who was not armed. Just saying. |
September 27, 2017, 01:08 PM | #28 | |
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Add that to the risk that eyewitnesses may believe you to have been the aggressor, which would of course badly weaken your defense of justification, and it does not sound at all prudent to me. |
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September 27, 2017, 05:39 PM | #29 | ||
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Hope things are well with you FB! Deaf
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September 30, 2017, 11:31 PM | #30 |
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Its my opinion ...that a draw to 1 shot at a 1 sec Par Time....is a highly trained & proficient shooter...especially if they are 95% or higher on A zone hits. ( 1 miss to a B zone out of 20 times running Draw & Fire 1 is 95%...)..if all under Par time.
As I get closer to 70, eyes are not good, arthritis, etc...I'm content with a Par time of 1.85....probably class B/ C range...for draw to 1 shot../ ...and i work hard to keep my rythum smooth & consistent and my followup shots Par time of ( 0.3 sec ). My personal goal is 92% or better using the ICE target against those par times...if I exceed Par it costs me 2 pts ...so a draw & fire 4 rds is 2.75 sec par time, but I want to run it consistently around 2.5 - 2.6 sec...at around 95% or better in A zone for a fundamental drill like that. ( so run it 5 times, 20 shots, 1 miss to B zone max.../ all under Par will give me 95% ). I train twice a week....to keep that drill ( draw fire 4 at or above 95%). For a beginner, I think a per time Draw to 1 shot should start at 3 sec...and work it down to 2 sec, if they can keep at least 90 % on the A zone. Build those fundamentals ...and split times of ( 0.5 sec ). If they drop below 90%...move the time back up, make them earn it. My point is ...set a Par time ...with an accuracy goal. I can shoot to a 1 sec par time, if I can live with a 75% accuracy..../ or 1.5 sec draw & fire 2... I would love to tell you I'm running my drills at 100% often, but it would be a lie..../ there are a lot of days when 96's - 98's sneak in there...( not that it matters, but I shoot a full sized 1911, 5" gun, in 9mm..). Among my buddies, in our 60's & 70's...we shoot matches weekly amongst ourselves...and I don't lose often ...and my avg hovers around 95% on a rolling 8 week basis...different COF every week...speed reloads, tac reloads, etc..( so i'm meeting my goal of 92% or better for the year....even when I choked a little on 4 matches this year and put up a couple of 90's and a couple of 88's... |
October 1, 2017, 02:47 PM | #31 |
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Pretty well.
Finally decided to turn in my reserve badge, ID, weapon and instructor/armorer's position at my former agency. They tried to find ways to interest me in remaining to continue to help teach (especially classes), but it was time. (Having been formally separated for several months hasn't stopped some occasional calls asking for advice in trouble shooting, repairs, training, etc, though. ) I've not yet decided whether I want to start writing for publication (after some prompting from someone in the biz), now that I'm no longer officially and actively connected to an agency. Busy spoiling granddaughters, enjoying riding bikes (MC's), keeping those hard-acquired unarmed, stick and blade skills from totally rusting over, discovering ways to exercise without risking injuries, enjoying cigars and adult beverages with the group at my cigar club, etc. 7 years cancer-free this last July. Hope you're also doing well. This whole aging thing makes me wish I'd read the fine print some years earlier.
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October 1, 2017, 04:43 PM | #32 | |
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October 1, 2017, 05:54 PM | #33 |
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My understanding of the 21 foot (7 yard) rule is not to state you need to shoot in 1.5 seconds or less. It is to say you can't shoot fast enough even if you are the fastest in the world. Even if you draw and fire, the target will be close enough their momentum will still drive them into you, and, if they have presented a blade, it may still cause you harm.
Unless you 'move off the X'. To safely stop the threat reliably you would need to shoot MUCH MUCH faster. Maybe .5 or even .25. I also understand the rule is now taught as 30/10. Consistent is far more important than absolute speed IMO. |
October 1, 2017, 07:18 PM | #34 | |||
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Dennis Tueller (a Salt Lake City police officer) developed the exercise to test at what distances an assailant with a contact weapon could be a credible threat. But folks seem perversely to not want to understand the real meaning of the Tueller data (and it is not a "rule"). The point Tueller was trying to make with his exercises is that an assailant 21(+/-) feet away with a contact weapon needs to be taken seriously as a threat. You need to take him seriously as a threat because (1) he can cover the distance between you and him in a short time; and (2) it will take you a roughly comparable amount of time to draw and fire your gun. Tueller's original article may be read here. Notice that Tueller talks about how being able to recognize what your danger zone is and that someone in it is a credible threat allows one to take early, appropriate defensive, risk mitigating actions. As Tueller says in the article: So the real point of the training exercise is to help understand one's danger zone -- how close an assailant with a contact weapon must be to be considered a lethal threat. And so the exercise and data can help define the problem, and once the problem is understood, we can consider strategies to deal with it. And so, as Tueller says: And yes, it appears that the "danger zone" is increasing. At least in part because to the adoption of retention service holsets which slow down deployment of the gun.
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October 1, 2017, 09:53 PM | #35 | |
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Deaf
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October 1, 2017, 10:38 PM | #36 |
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Draw and fire 1 round on a target at 10 yards? I'm going to posit that the target size should be roughly 8" (to at least get a lung shot). That's what I practice with anyway.
My time at 10 yards is right at 1.5 for an accurate shot from a retention holster. My failure drills (2 center, 1 head) are fairly accurate at 2.5 seconds (with the occasional flyer). Any faster and accuracy suffers. I honestly haven't tried it at 7 yards, I kind of want to now. I always practice at a distance greater than standard, more in hopes that time/accuracy will go up when I drop down to the standard. Kind of like if you want to run 2 miles really fast, practice running 3 miles... |
October 2, 2017, 09:59 PM | #37 | |
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http://www.policemag.com/channel/wea...foot-rule.aspx No one here is my professor. Law nor English. It has been colloquially referred to as the '21 foot rule' for longer than I have been alive. It is given as such by many force on force instructors and in publications. I've been cleared to engage with deadly force if the criteria are met previously. Maybe you expect there to be some sort of watchdog such as the ASALE to define such things. I do not. I will admit my previous statement could benefit from more modal verbs. |
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October 3, 2017, 12:29 AM | #38 | |||||
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So according to the very authority you have chosen, the Tueller exercise should not be called a "rule." And the fact that many people might share a common, erroneous understanding of something is no reason to perpetuate that error by repeating or defending that misunderstanding. In fact, it's a reason for those who know and properly understand the subject to provide accurate information and correct the misunderstanding. Quote:
Did you get some sort of certificate calligraphed by hand on vellum to hang on your wall? Do you also have a handy laminated card to carry in your wallet? Quote:
The author of the article you linked to, Dr. Martinelli, understands even if you do not:
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October 3, 2017, 01:25 AM | #39 |
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While I'm not even remotely anyone's idea of an 'expert' in this sort of thing, I have invested a fair number of years in having to keep relatively current on things of this sort (as a LE firearms instructor), and I've listened to Dennis Tueller explain his experience and thinking regarding the development of the "drill" back then (I attended couple classes where he was serving as an instructor for Glock armorer classes).
He's a very interesting person to listen to, especially when you're able to get him aside in a small group, like 2 or 3 people (during a break). One thing he mentioned one time was that if he were going to go back and "redo" the drill, he'd probably increase the distance to cover more like 30ft. There are many things to think about regarding some of the important considerations to be learned from his well considered effort, meaning some of the 'variables', such as defender position at the awareness of the perceived threat, attempting to gain distance (from the attacker) and beneficial defender actions (movement, accurate shots fired, etc). Students (LE, and lawfully armed citizens) would be wise to apply some of the insights he developed, but to always remember that each possible incident is probably always going to be somewhat unique, as circumstances can easily vary from one situation to the next. Environmental 'problems' can easily change from one situation to another, not the least of which is whether a defender even has the ability to move in some direction, aided or hindered by the presence of 'things', such as cars (parked, or even moving traffic), walls, fences, doorways (doors which can be closed) ... and whether it occurs indoors or outdoors. Being trapped within a constricted hallway, or being able to take advantage of moving to place "barriers" between the attacker and the defender (furniture, tables, etc), can all present situational variables ... as well as the nature of the weapon an attacker is attempting to use (knife, club, firearm, etc). This might be best viewed as part of an individual's learning process, meaning being able to apply some of the potential insights gained from things learned in such a "drill" to their other training and knowledge, including experiential knowledge. Not just some "rule" to be held up as a fixed thing. But then, I'm not anybody's expert, all things considered.
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October 3, 2017, 01:53 AM | #40 | |
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Speaking of skills rusting, just picked up a used S&W 642, real cheap, so I can do very close quarters practice on the range, just for those 'Tueller' situations. Practiced with it today using light reloads and my favorite appendix position holster then, being a practice gun, just stuck it in the gun bag and haven't cleaned it yet. Deaf
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October 3, 2017, 03:23 AM | #41 | |
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From a personal perspective, the Centennial style J-frame is one of those quintessential wheelguns that just gets better with age and use. I own more than half a dozen J's, including a couple of 642's. I also have a couple of M&P 340's (one from their first run, and then a later production no-lock model). I look at the M&P 340's as being sort of an "improved" 642, meaning having a better sight setup and being a couple ounces lighter, even with its PVD blackened stainless cylinder, which can handy for long days of pocket carry. I always try to keep a dirty J in the safe, so I always have a ready excuse to take one whenever I go to the range.
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October 5, 2017, 01:24 PM | #42 | ||
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Outside of competition games I think way too much weight is put on raw speed. It is far more important to train to start moving as soon as anything happens and develop a system with consistent times. I have not heard of any place where you can get into legal trouble for moving in response to a threat. They threat may shoot, lunge, or whatever, but at least you are moving if they do. Just like how many shots you need you can't predict how fast you will need to be.
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1. A gun is always loaded. 2.Never point a gun at something you don't intend to destroy. 3. Always keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target. Then you go to a clays event and a guy carries a broke shotgun around muzzling everyone and when he walks up to the line he pulls his release trigger before he even calls for the pigeon/clay/target. If someone does not understand a person who has been tipped out of their wheelchair, but is still wielding a knife on the ground basically immobilized, is not an immediate physical threat simply because they are 18 feet away; discussing the issue with them is not likely to be effective. I'm not reciting that article verbatim every time the issue comes up or carrying a copy around in my wallet. When the term is used, if anyone doesn't understand, then a more in depth discussion is warranted. An excess of modal verbs is probably best. "21 foot observation" "21 foot guideline" Reword it in a standard for that is not as definitive as some tend to word it. This thread is missing a mandatory item: Surrounded man injures several and kills one armed officer with knife. Yes, there are a lot of obvious poor training issues in that video. Last edited by johnwilliamson062; October 5, 2017 at 01:30 PM. |
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October 9, 2017, 10:24 PM | #43 |
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Gaming aside.
If you can draw from concealed and get your first round into your attackers COM, in 1.5 sec, in the real world, your as fast or faster than 90 percent of carriers walking the street. A 1.5 draw to fire will beat the Tuller drill all day unless you glue the defenders feet to ground. |
October 11, 2017, 04:18 PM | #44 |
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I think Frank hit the nail on the head on post #34. The idea is to recognize that a contact weapon is a serious threat at about 21 feet since the average person can close that gap in around 2 seconds. Is it a hard and fast rule? Absolutely not. Some attackers may be faster (let's hope Usain Bolt doesn't turn to a life of crime LOL) and some shooters may be faster (Jerry Miculek anyone?). Keep you eyes and ears open and give yourself as much time to react without being the aggressor.
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October 12, 2017, 06:51 AM | #45 |
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All the training I have taken it is said that, "the average person" can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds
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October 12, 2017, 10:00 AM | #46 |
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Yea.. but what is this "average person"? Average means arithmetic mean... mediocrity... would not even get to pass a test with a 50 percent score.
So did they test 500 individuals on the 21 ft course and clock them? No? In short it's meaningless as for this drill. Deaf
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October 12, 2017, 12:49 PM | #47 |
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That is 21 feet (7 yards) from a standing start in 1.5 seconds. Yes it's an average as tested by a police sergeant using volunteers. It has been verified many times with runners and shooters under a variety of conditions. The problem I see with this "rule" is that we all know one shot may not stop an attacker and there is no time for a second shot.
If a man has a knife in his hand and starts to run at you, you are going to be stabbed or slashed. You have to be alert to everyone in your "threat zone" and that might be 8 feet for a talented martial artist at the top of his game or it might be half a block for an old man with a debilitating back injury (like me). Your ability to recognize a possible threat and avoid it is what awareness is all about. Look into the face of people as they enter your threat zone and look at their body language, their hands and where their attention is. Don't approach blind corners close to the wall, give yourself time to react. |
October 12, 2017, 01:24 PM | #48 |
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Post # 47
Post 47 is worth reading two or three times or more, and considering carefully.
That last sentence is really important. |
October 12, 2017, 03:28 PM | #49 | |
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Just what kind of pool of 'volunteers' did they use? Deaf
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October 12, 2017, 04:13 PM | #50 | |
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A number years ago I was helping Massad Ayoob with a class in Arizona, and he did the drill with the students. The student ranged from young and fit to old and not very fit at all. The times for the for the 7 yards ranged from about 1.3 seconds to about 1.7 seconds. We did it in our Personal Protection in the Home class a few weeks ago. The students were generally younger middle age and moderately fit. The times of those who chose to participate were all between 1.4 and 1.6 seconds.
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