1911 with scratched serial number? Restoration suggestions?

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Willie Sutton

...Custom 1960's era .45 built by Austin Behlert. Chopped to be what today would be considered an officers model. Narrowed by thinning the entire slide and frame to remove weght. Original serial number along with all other markings are GONE via this process. Same number re-applied by Behlert in the original location. Nobody is going to challenge this....

Given the kinds of modifications he made, he, as some other custom makers, probably had manufacturer FFLs and were authorized by ATF to serial number the guns they built.

And how much of all this was prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968? That made a big difference.

[Willie Sutton]

For me as a lawyer, I can not make those sorts of assumptions.


As a lawyer, I would expect absolutely nothing else from you.
My faith in your ethics continues to be absolutely complete.

I mean this with all due respect, and it is not being said in jest.


Willie

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[Aguila Blanca]

I think it behooves us to re-read the tidbit of Federal law that Frank Ettin cited several posts above. But I'll change the highlighting to emphasize one point:

....(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce....

In law, as in life, words have meaning. Altered means changed. If the serial number that was originally applied by a manufacturer is obscured and then restruck, or if it is removed and subsequently stamped or engraved back onto the same firearm either in the original location or elsewhere on the receiver, that serial number has been altered. Who knows if some overzealous BATFE agent looking to boost his/her numbers might decide to make an issue of it? To opine that "common sense" should dictate that nobody will care is to ignore the reality that a great many law enforcement people are devoid of common sense.

Aside from that, once a serial number has been removed and restruck, or restruck over the original, how could any law enforcement officer, judge or jury possibly know that the "new" number is the same as the old number?

[Quincunx]

In 2007, while living in coastal NC, I won in a Gunbroker auction a 1922 Colt Army Special, which was in moderately rough shape when I got it. It came from a pawnshop in Georgia. When the Colt arrived at my LGS, the serial # was almost completely obliterated; it was quite obvious that, whenever it happened, it had been an intentional act. The LGS called BATF, and an agent showed up at my front door the following morning and told my wife that I needed to call him urgently. He was very nice about things, and told me that I was in no way in trouble, but he was as serious as a heart attack about the whole issue. He went over the whole purchase with me in detail, thanked me, and stated that the pawnshop owner "will not be happy" with what (unspecified) further action the BATF would be taking. He then did something (not sure what) to restore the serial #, but then had to come back up to the LGS with a tool kit and restamp the # on another part of the gun because the original was deemed not legible enough. He then called me again and told me that I could come pick up the gun "and I hope you can get her fixed up -- those old Colts are nice guns."

Not the same situation as faced by the OP, I know, but just wanted to offer it as an experience of a positive interaction with the BATF re: serial # problems.

[zxcvbob]

Aside from that, once a serial number has been removed and restruck, or restruck over the original, how could any law enforcement officer, judge or jury possibly know that the "new" number is the same as the old number?

An overzealous prosecutor could make a case against any one of us for totally made-up charges, and a gullible jury might fall for it. Does that mean we should dump all our guns in the ocean and stay in bed for the rest of our lives? (actually, you might be prosecuted for that too)

Obviously the only safe thing to do is kill yourself.

[Bill DeShivs]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The number I removed and reapplied was the ATF-approved number. It was crudely stamped, and I re engraved it. My understanding was that if a SN is removed and reapplied in the same general area during refinishing or customizing, it is permissable. Maybe it isn't permissable now.
I'm not advocating anyone breaking the law-just trying to help.

[Bill DeShivs]

Here is another suggestion-disassemble the pistol frame completely before contacting anyone. The frame is the only questionable part. Everything else is perfectly legal. Should the frame have to be forfeited, you can buy another frame and rebuild the pistol perfectly legally.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

An overzealous prosecutor could make a case against any one of us for totally made-up charges, and a gullible jury might fall for it...

What drivel.

[1] Your overzealous prosecutor is a diligent prosecutor to someone else. It is his job to prosecute criminal acts.

[2] Possession of a gun on which the serial number has been removed, obliterated or altered is not a made up charge. It is clearly a crime under federal law, and various federal court decisions, a couple of which I cited above, have provided further clarity on what constitutes a removed, obliterated or altered serial number.

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

...Does that mean we should dump all our guns in the ocean and stay in bed for the rest of our lives?...

Perhaps you really do consider that your only recourse. That's too bad, but also your problem.

Many of us prefer to spend some time, effort and energy trying to learn and understand how things work in the real world so that we can pursue our interests, enjoy our lives and minimize our legal risks.

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

...Obviously the only safe thing to do is kill yourself.

It is certainly your prerogative to deal with the normal complexities and vicissitudes of life as you see fit. Personally, I've chosen other strategies.

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Here is another suggestion-disassemble the pistol frame completely before contacting anyone. The frame is the only questionable part. Everything else is perfectly legal. Should the frame have to be forfeited, you can buy another frame and rebuild the pistol perfectly legally.

True, and another possible approach to dealing with this matter.

However, given Aguila Blanca's information about Turnbull perhaps being able to restore that serial number with a restoration of the pistol, I'd urge the OP to look into that. If Turnbull can/will do that, it will be expensive; but the OP will wind up with a magnificent, and legal, keepsake.

[zxcvbob]

Perhaps you really do consider that your only recourse. That's too bad, but also your problem.

Many of us prefer to spend some time, effort and energy trying to learn and understand how things work in the real world so that we can pursue our interests, enjoy our lives and minimize our legal risks.

You are the one (and the only one) who has said that Jared (OP) has already committed a serious felony by inheriting a gun with a partially-defaced serial number -- something he had no control over.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

You are the one (and the only one) who has said that Jared (OP) has already committed a serious felony by inheriting a gun with a partially-defaced serial number -- something he had no control over.

Wrong --

[1] I did not say he committed a serious felony by inheriting a gun with a partially defaced serial number. I said he is committing a serious felony by retaining possession of a gun with a partially defaced serial number. There's a difference.

[2] He might not have had any control over inheriting the gun, but he does have absolute control over continuing to possess it. He also has a number of meaningful options (as well as a number of useless and illegal options), outlined in this thread, for dealing with the situation; and he has control over how he handles matters from now on.

[3] As far as the question of whether he is committing a felony by his continued possession of the gun, I've cited and quoted the applicable federal statute and a couple of federal court decision which support the conclusion that he is committing a federal felony by his continued possession of the gun.

[4] And I'm not the only one who has concluded that he has a legal problem here. See siska (post 8), Noreaster (post 16), and Aguila Blanca (post 29).

[5] But in any case, as far as I know, I'm the only lawyer on this thread.

[MLeake]

+1.

You've been very clear and, in my layman's opinion, on target, Frank.

So far, the advice that makes sense to me is to either contact the ATF, or see if Turnbull can repair the problem, or both.