Anyone know of colt 1911s without serial numbers

oberkommando · January 22, 2000, 09:55 PM

Found one at gun store going out of business and cant find any numbers on frame except one (7) near the locking lug area on inside area of frame and the letters H AND G near back on top frame area though none are in a row there are just these three symbols. Slide is marked I belive Colts model 1911 Army or some such thing with the horse behind the slide cutts. The other side of slide has two or so patent numbers one dating late 1800's I believe and the other 1913 (or 18) Was told the frame cannot be sold with out serial number. Does not appear to have ever had one. Disassembled down to bare frame all parts save ejector and plugertube and cannot find any other numbers. Can buy for about 125 is there any way to purchase and still make it worth while financially. Too much to send to colt and dont know how much the ATF charges to assign a number?Shouldn need a damn number!

George Stringer · January 22, 2000, 10:14 PM

Oberkommando, I came across one of those in the early 70s. I did a little research on it and found out that it was probably a "lunch pail" .45. These were guns that were taken home piece by piece a'la Johnny Cash's Cadillac in lunch pails by workers during WWII. Your's might very well be one of those. George

James K · January 22, 2000, 11:12 PM

It is not illegal to own or sell a gun without a serial number. Thousands of guns were made without serial numbers pre-1968 and they are legal to own and sell.

It is illegal to own a firearm from which the number has been removed or altered. With that gun, it could be hard to convince anyone that the gun never had a number.

Jim

Jim V · January 23, 2000, 06:53 AM

I had the chance, which I passed on (insert sound of head being bounced off a wall here)

, to purchase a "sterile" 1911A1 from the estate of a former FBI Agent. He had been issued the pistol during WWII. I detail stripped the pistol and there were no marks to be found any where on it.

------------------
Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"

Paul B. · January 23, 2000, 12:46 PM

I saw one 1911A1 type .45 at a gun show with absolutely no markings at all. I asked the man selling it if it was a "lunch pail" gun. He said it was not. Told me they made some "sterile" guns for clandestine work. I would have bought it, but the price was almost enough to buy a late model used car. It was interesting to look at though.
Paul B.

John Lawson · January 23, 2000, 04:34 PM

South American 1911-A1 pistols made under Colt License had only one serial number on the pistol, on top of the slide. Change slides, and no serial nuimber. The early Colt slides interchanged perfectly.
It seems that BATF neglected to notice this and allowed some of these pistols to be imported on the surplus market in the '60's.
(Later ones had to have the serial number stamped into the frame in the usual manner.)
My goodness, how strange tales abound to elevate the price of some rather common early Colt style pistols from Argentina!
When you are at a gun show, and some shyster lays this kind of crap on you, demand to see some provenance (written proof) of his fantastic tale.
When I was in the Ordnance Corps I saw a large number of pistols used in covert operations; all of them had serial numbers.
If you find one without serial numbers, usually an application of hydrochloric acid will bring up the original number that some unnamed person or agency has obfuscated.
The only unnumbered ones we saw were made by
machine shops in North Korea and some much later from North Vietnam. In every instance, they were very poorly made specemins.

oberkommando · January 24, 2000, 02:55 PM

Called K-DOJ and the lady form firamsdivison said the handgun must have serial number to be sold, unless it is an antique. She said that I would have to call the manufacture. This is kind of hard as there are no manufacture data on frame. Guess that is the gun buyers problem. Hold time calling colt is 45 minutes and have to go to work now will call them later and see what they say.

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January 22, 2000, 09:55 PM	#1
oberkommando Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 1999 Posts: 1,158	Found one at gun store going out of business and cant find any numbers on frame except one (7) near the locking lug area on inside area of frame and the letters H AND G near back on top frame area though none are in a row there are just these three symbols. Slide is marked I belive Colts model 1911 Army or some such thing with the horse behind the slide cutts. The other side of slide has two or so patent numbers one dating late 1800's I believe and the other 1913 (or 18) Was told the frame cannot be sold with out serial number. Does not appear to have ever had one. Disassembled down to bare frame all parts save ejector and plugertube and cannot find any other numbers. Can buy for about 125 is there any way to purchase and still make it worth while financially. Too much to send to colt and dont know how much the ATF charges to assign a number?Shouldn need a damn number!

January 22, 2000, 10:14 PM	#2
George Stringer Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Earlington KY Posts: 2,299	Oberkommando, I came across one of those in the early 70s. I did a little research on it and found out that it was probably a "lunch pail" .45. These were guns that were taken home piece by piece a'la Johnny Cash's Cadillac in lunch pails by workers during WWII. Your's might very well be one of those. George

January 22, 2000, 11:12 PM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It is not illegal to own or sell a gun without a serial number. Thousands of guns were made without serial numbers pre-1968 and they are legal to own and sell. It is illegal to own a firearm from which the number has been removed or altered. With that gun, it could be hard to convince anyone that the gun never had a number. Jim

January 23, 2000, 06:53 AM	#4
Jim V Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 1999 Location: SE Michigan - USA Posts: 4,038	I had the chance, which I passed on (insert sound of head being bounced off a wall here) , to purchase a "sterile" 1911A1 from the estate of a former FBI Agent. He had been issued the pistol during WWII. I detail stripped the pistol and there were no marks to be found any where on it. ------------------ *Ne Conjuge Nobiscum* "If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"

January 23, 2000, 12:46 PM	#5
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,801	I saw one 1911A1 type .45 at a gun show with absolutely no markings at all. I asked the man selling it if it was a "lunch pail" gun. He said it was not. Told me they made some "sterile" guns for clandestine work. I would have bought it, but the price was almost enough to buy a late model used car. It was interesting to look at though. Paul B.

January 23, 2000, 04:34 PM	#6
John Lawson Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 1999 Posts: 281	South American 1911-A1 pistols made under Colt License had only one serial number on the pistol, on top of the slide. Change slides, and no serial nuimber. The early Colt slides interchanged perfectly. It seems that BATF neglected to notice this and allowed some of these pistols to be imported on the surplus market in the '60's. (Later ones had to have the serial number stamped into the frame in the usual manner.) My goodness, how strange tales abound to elevate the price of some rather common early Colt style pistols from Argentina! When you are at a gun show, and some shyster lays this kind of crap on you, demand to see some provenance (written proof) of his fantastic tale. When I was in the Ordnance Corps I saw a large number of pistols used in covert operations; all of them had serial numbers. If you find one without serial numbers, usually an application of hydrochloric acid will bring up the original number that some unnamed person or agency has obfuscated. The only unnumbered ones we saw were made by machine shops in North Korea and some much later from North Vietnam. In every instance, they were very poorly made specemins.

January 24, 2000, 02:55 PM	#7
oberkommando Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 1999 Posts: 1,158	Called K-DOJ and the lady form firamsdivison said the handgun must have serial number to be sold, unless it is an antique. She said that I would have to call the manufacture. This is kind of hard as there are no manufacture data on frame. Guess that is the gun buyers problem. Hold time calling colt is 45 minutes and have to go to work now will call them later and see what they say.