Texas Deer Hunting - what went wrong?

[JohnKSa]

If I understand you correctly then no one may publicly proclaim a negative opinion of the behavior of others without imposing upon them?

Not at all.

Acting legally and acting ethically are not always the same thing.

Agreed.

It is commendable to live by a personal moral code. It is quite another thing to expect everyone else to also live by the same personal moral code that you employ.

It is a good thing for a person to set and abide by a strict personal sense of ethics. It is quite another thing for that person to say that everyone who doesn't live up to that person's own personal sense of ethics is unethical.

"Imposing your moral code on other's behavior" ISN'T the same as "imposing on them" or "enforcing your moral code" or "having the authority to enforce your moral code". There's a difference between applying your personal standard to the world and forcing the world to comply. Clearly you're not trying to force the world to comply, nor am I suggesting anything of the sort. (Although you have come very close to saying that you WOULD force them to comply if you could--or punish them if they did not.) However, you certainly are saying that anyone who does not live up to your personal standard is "unethical", "unsporting", or "immoral".

In the beginning, you were stating your opinion. Different points of view are always interesting and the discussion was educating and thought-provoking. When you started flat out saying that anyone not practicing your views was immoral and unethical, that's where it stopped being simply a matter of stating opinion and began to be snobbery. That's also where the thread pretty much began to turn from a discussion of hunting to a debate on what constitutes immoral or unethical or insulting.

[DAVID NANCARROW]

"When you started flat out saying that anyone not practicing your views was immoral and unethical, that's where it stopped being simply a matter of stating opinion and began to be snobbery"

Thank you, John KSa. Couldn't have spelled it out more succinctly myself.

[butch50]

David and JohnKsa

"When you started flat out saying that anyone not practicing your views was immoral and unethical, that's where it stopped being simply a matter of stating opinion and began to be snobbery"

Well OK, the thread has kind of wandered off I admit. Let me stipulate to my being a snob of the worst kind and let that go at that. I don't mind.

But to return to the origin of this thread, it is my opinion, humble as it is, that hunting deer over a mechanical feeder - especially inside a high fence enclosure - is unsporting and unethical (synonymous with amoral in my book). Unethtical pretty much being the same thing as unsporting in this context - so to simply things let me cleary make on simple statement:

"Shooting deer over a mechanical feeder is the least sporting method of legally harvesting deer, in my opinion."

Now, gentlemen my snobbery aside, what is your opinion of that statement?

[22-rimfire]

My 2 cents.... I believe that the lease situation in Texas is the likely evolution of almost all private hunting property in the US where some money will exchange hands prior to hunting. I personally don't like it much.

Is hunting over (near) a feeder legal in Texas? Yes. Is it ethical? Ethics usually follow the state or federal laws and society mores or vice versa. Folks feel it's okay, so I am not going to condemn someone for hunting in a legal manner. Frankly, I'm just jealous that I can't afford to hunt on those big ranches (deer factories) in South Texas and the Hill Country.

[butch50]

22:

Don't be jealous. If you are used to fair chase huntng and you ever shot a deer over a feeder you wouldn't feel much; except a pinch in the wallet. I don't agree though that ethics follow laws. My opinion is that what has happened to Texas hunting has followed economics regardless of sportsmanship.

Do you recall the entrepeneur that recently set up hunting by remote controlled guns over a website? It didn't take long for the Texas legislature to shut him down. Why? Because he didn't have a lobbyist filling up politicians pockets....in my opinion. The difference between hunting by a remote controlled internet website, and hunting over a mechanical feeder isn't all that vast, ethically speaking.

[JohnKSa]

Let me stipulate to my being a snob of the worst kind and let that go at that.

There are worse things. I'm something of snob myself but I generally try to hide the fact from others.

"Shooting deer over a mechanical feeder is the least sporting method of legally harvesting deer, in my opinion."

Disagree. But I'll go so far as to say it's not anywhere near the top of the list of sporting methods.

The difference between hunting by a remote controlled internet website, and hunting over a mechanical feeder isn't all that vast

Now, THAT, I'll agree with. To be frank, I can't understand why people who have no problem with one would be perturbed by the other.

[22-rimfire]

I don't mean to sound overly negative, but deer hunting in Texas is a business for the most part. People or companies spend large sums of money to lease property to allow the land owner the financial ability to improve his resouce (deer) and set up permanent deer stands etc. Companies want to take their clients out on a hunt, show them a good time for a day or two, and conduct business. Not all employees have access to these corporate deer leases. The leases provide for a high success rate and that is what is desired.

When I lived in Texas, I spent a lot of time working on the big ranches in South Texas. I saw some of the biggest whitetail racks that I have ever seen. I was invited to hunt on a number of these BIG ranches for whitetail, exotics, javelina, wild boars, and turkey and declined because I had no way to deal with the meat at the time. I regret that now. But, that does not change the fact that hunting in the better areas is a business. It is not about sportsmenship, it is about trophies and success rates. You can whitewash it any way you want to, but it is business-deer business.

[butch50]

22:

If I understand you correctly you are in agreement with me then?

Good for you for not killing game when you had no way of dealing with the meat. I did the same thing when I was in the Army and stationed in Alaska - lots of great hunting was available, but I lived in the barracks and had no way to deal with the meat of anything more than small game (or fish) which I could cook and eat right there in the field. Large game was completely out of the question.

I will never have the proximate opportunity to hunt such gorgeous country for such marvelous animals again in my life, and I wish it had been otherwise. But I was raised that you eat what you kill, period.

JohnKsa: What is the least sporting legal harvest technique that you know of that is less sporting than shooting deer over a mechanical feeder? I am curious...

[22-rimfire]

Butch: We are general agreement on sportsmanship. But, it is not an automatic that you shoot that big 10 or 12-point whitetail buck just because there are mechanical feeders around. If you can shoot half way decently, the mechanical feeder probably gives you an edge to shoot A buck.

Someday you'll be able to do the Alaska hunt. You just have to set your priorities and work toward that goal. My dream is for a guided elk hunt in Colorado or Wyoming. It is an achievable dream if I want it.

Now, we are back to sportsmanship? My guided elk hunt.. sporting? I think it is. But hiring a guide certainly increases the success rate. Wouldn't you agree? Guides cost money as do most of the better lease areas in Texas. You don't need a guide in Texas for whitetails. But, you might want one if you're hunting elk.

This is a geneal question that I don' really want to attack head on. I am just not that set in my attitudes about sportsmanship and what defines sportsmanship. I abide by the game laws and usually that means it's legal and sporting. You can always hunt somewhere else that more closely matches your ideas about ethics and so forth.

Example: In Wyoming, you draw a buffalo tag.... you have permission to hunt on private property..... is it sporting to shoot (harvest) a buffalo at 200 yards chewing his cud? Many would say that it is very sporting.

[impact]

Butch you have such a negative out look on life or hunting at least. Thats a sad thing. Non of the things you mention I find to be true about hunting in Texas. I can't help it! I still have you pegged as a liberal with an political agenda. Maybe it's because I listen to Rush

[JohnKSa]

I have some friends who live in the country and often see deer from their house. Assuming that effort expended and skill required are the measure of the level of "sportingness", I'd think that shooting a deer out the back window would score pretty low.

[MassHunter2190]

MassHunter2190, so if your driving on your own land and happen upon a deer, you would not get out of your vehicle and take the shot, because that's cheating?

Of course I would, but I wouldn't call it hunting.

[butch50]

Butch you have such a negative out look on life or hunting at least. Thats a sad thing. Non of the things you mention I find to be true about hunting in Texas. I can't help it! I still have you pegged as a liberal with an political agenda. Maybe it's because I listen to Rush

Rush is too liberal for me, but let's don't go down that road: I am way to conservative for most folks inclinations and they tend to get a bit angry with me when we talk politics.

My guided elk hunt.. sporting?

I think hiring a guide does not diminish the sportsmanship of fair chase hunting. Heck if you hire a bad guide you actually increase the elks chances. If you hire a good guide then you are still pursing the game by fair chase, and even with a great guide that won't come easy.

I'd think that shooting a deer out the back window would score pretty low.

That is worse than shooting over a feeder, but isn't it also illegal? Maybe not, I don't recall ever seeing it written in the game laws that you can not shoot a deer from inside your house.

[22-rimfire]

"I'd think that shooting a deer out the back window would score pretty low." Heck, you have to at least open the back door a crack. I shot a crow out the back window of the house with a 243... first and last time I will EVER fire a gun indoors unless it is a self-defense situation or at an indoor range with hearing protection. The whole house rocked.

In many states you have to be 100 yards from a house to legally hunt. If it is your own house and on your own property.... probably doesn't apply.

Interesting thought. Didn't the term "HARVEST" originate with Texas deer hunting? To say you kill a deer doesn't seem to fit into our present society vocabulary.

[butch50]

I guess "harvest" is a PC term and there I was using it with abandon and I have never been called politically correct - Let's go back to using the word kill instead. So much cleaner and has no euphimistic value at all.

[MeekAndMild]

Next logical question is whether it is ethical to use an atlatl when spear hunting for deer.

[cuate]

On my place there are deer, When the first shot of the season is fired they disappear. I don't hunt them but let a couple of brothers who can't afford hunting fees in. In three years they have killed one deer and two turkeys from a stand. Deer Hunting has become bid business in Texas for the Ranch Owners, last I hears it was $1500 for the season, may have gone up.

A lot of Texas deer hunters come out to play poker, drink a lot of whisky and sometimes bring their girlfrinds and or secretaries, mostly big city hunters. Sometimes the Ranch forman will kill them a deer to take home which generaly will never be eaten. For a lot of bigshots, its just an an excuse to get away and have a ball. Apologies to the real hunters.

Not infrequently they see something in the cedars moving and send a bullet that way, not knowing it may be another hunter.

There is nothing as tasty as backstrap prepared and cooked properly but I wopuld be damned careful hunting where the town boys hunt if not in a deer stand.

Again apologies to real deer hunters!

[butch50]

Next logical question is whether it is ethical to use an atlatl when spear hunting for deer.

At the other extreme would be using trip wires and claymores at the feeder. Anything can be carried too far in either direction, but that doesn't actually make a point does it?

[22-rimfire]

Back during pre-historic times, I doubt if the idea of whether or not taking a whitetail with an atlatl ever came up. Nor did it come up when using bows & arrows or black powder weapons when the purpose of hunting was subsistence. I doubt if they would have any adversion to shooting near a mechanical feeder since they just want to eat venison. I bet they would think the feeder a pretty cool deal!

This whole business of sportsmanship is a relatively recent phenomena, although I feel sure that this came up on fox or raccoon hunts in Great Brittain back in the old days. Why? Because the discussion was between wealthy people who did not "need" the meat for survival. It was all about sport, the thrill of the chase, and hunting was a social affair frequently.

Now we have state game laws that define what is and is not appropriate when hunting. They set seasons, minimum caliber requirements, sometimes the type of rifle action (self-loading vs mechanical), maximum number of rounds in a magazine, minimum number of "points" on a deer, using dogs, and then the legality of baiting. Many states do not allow direct baiting during deer hunting season. Even a salt lick is considered baiting.

It is nice to live in a society that has the luxury to have sporting standards. My idea of sportsmanship pretty much follows the state requirements. Texas was one of the early states to employ a scientific approach to deer herd management. It was actually done on a private basis in Texas. Why? Because it was a business and the ranch owner was trying to maximize his resource which has a value. I have no problem with this as it just makes sense.

[butch50]

When it comes to hunting for survival, there are no rules at all. Any way that you can kill a deer is OK, even stealing deer from some other hunter that killed it is just fine; If I was truly hungry and the best way to eat was to kill a deer there wouldn't be anything remotely sportsmanlike in the way I would go about it.

But that isn't what we were talking about and I think the spearchucker didn't read through the posts.

[impact]

So Butch! Why are you so upset about deer leases in Texas? I get the idea that you are not telling the whole story.

[butch50]

Simply that it bothers me that we have tall fences fencing in deer that are public property, and the landowner who has caputred those deer sell them off to the highest bidder, which seem to me to be illegal. And that the method of shooting those deer relies upon training the captive deer to come to a specific spot at a specific time, which isn't really hunting.

Why doesn't that bother you?

[taralon]

One of the things that hasn't been brought up about Texas feeder "hunting" so far in this discussion that I've seen is the impression that it has upon upon the non-hunting part of the public.

About 60% when you turn to a hunting show on the outdoor channel, you see someone either a) hunting deer over bait or b) hunting bear over bait. I've lost track of how many times I've had friends who know I am a hunter come up and tell me, "I saw show X on TV today and that's just wrong". Trying to convince them that baiting is done by a minority of hunters in a minority of states when so many shows feature it is near impossible.

I think that if you went out an polled the non-hunting public, that part of the public who doesn't really get why we do what we do, I think you'd be hard pressed to find one that agrees that 'bait hunting' is really hunting at all. It hurts the publics image of hunters being responsible sportsmen and conservationist. An image that groups like Ducks Unlimited, Elks Unlimited have been working decades to build. Is endangering hunting as a whole for the 'convenience' of shooting an animal over bait really worth it? I think not. You may think otherwise.

[artsmom]

butch50, I don't like enclosed fences for hunting, even if it would be 100,000 acres.

I am more ambivalent on the feeders, as I am just starting to compare their feeder with me sitting in the corner of a picked cornfield, and haven't come up with an answer. I guess I could say I am just taking advantage of what I find, and every hunter does that, whether it is a trail, a track, or the wind. I am also not trying on my own to influence that deer, but isn't that what people do when they make mock scrapes? How about planting food plots?

One writer summed it up pretty well when he said, "If you think Davey Crockett or Daniel Boone would look silly using a (fill in the blank), then it isn't 100% okay."

I am 102% against deerstands, because I have had a couple of run ins with the laws, specifically, the laws of gravity. I hate laws that enforce themselves:-)

[butch50]

ArtsMom:

There is a difference between a feeder and a field of corn. While it may not seem to be a big difference at first consider the following:

Feeder - brings deer to a specific spot not much bigger than 30 feet in diameter. Field of Corn will likely be several acres.

Feeder - uses a timer device to train deer to come at a specific time. Field of Corn is there 24/7, the deer will show up when they feel like it. The feeder doesn't take any skill or even a lot of waiting while the corn field requires that you either sit there forever, or that you know enough about the deers habits to know when they are "likely" to show.

Feeder - is placed there for one purpose, specifically to draw in deer. Corn field was placed there specifically for one purpose and that is to grow a crop.

Davy Crocket and Daniel Boone were from another era altogether and hunter for different reasons;to compare with them is comparing apples to oranges I think.

Mock scrapes and food plots are fuzzier for me, they don't exactly fit in with fair chase hunting but on the other hand they don't appear to me to be using behavior modification techniques to actually train the deer either. I personally wouldn't use them, but don't see them as being all that bad either. I also don't see anything particulary wrong with tree stands assuming they aren't set up over a mechanical feeder.