Texas Deer Hunting - what went wrong?

[butch50]

The average - and I stress average - deer hunter in Texas "hunts" over bait. It has been that way for so long that at least two or three generations have grown up doing it that way and don't see it as, well less than hunting or as unsporting. The feeders used are on timers and click and whir loudly while scattering corn. The deer very quickly learn exactly what time a feeder will go active and they will arrive early and wait for it. The hunters set the timer to go off at the time, or times, of day that they want to be in the nearby blind, generally just after good shooting light, which allows the hunter to arrive at the blind in the dark and get settled in a bit before the deer arrive for their appointment.

This system seems to be based upon the fact that there is very little public land in Texas and if you want to hunt you pretty much have to pay lease rights. The land owner can squeeze in more guns with this methold and therefore make more money. The public land that you can get on is generally crowded and scary.

What the heck happened here? How many people out there consider this to be unsporting? Are there many other states where this is considered normal and sporting?

[ahenry]

The only people that consider this unsporting are those that have never tried it before. The reason I say this is because if you have ever sat in a stand over a feeder and seen the deer come in and seen them disappear in the Texas scrub brush you know its not as unsporting as it would seem to the uninitiated. It’s not like the Hank Hill episode, it does require skill. If you take it a step farther and do the feeding yourself, you really understand how much work and knowledge is involved. The reason trophy deer ranches in Texas charge the huge amounts of money they do is because they use experts to manage things. Their use of the experts is what enables them to bring in deer in a consistent manner.

[LAK]

I think the main problem in Texas is the lack of pubic land open to hunting. There just isn't sufficient public land for the number of hunters.

[Double Naught Spy]

Tried it or not, it is unsporting. Come on. How can you consider it hunting when you are sniping a deer attracted to a feeder location you have baited and you shoot the deer from some vantage point like a tree stand? Just what is needed to accomplish this? You need to be able to shoot, sit quietly and patiently to await arrival of a deer, and you need to have the gun, feeder, and location.

Heck, I have cousins in the country that are hunters like that. They call in the cattle to up by the barn where they are fed grain. They wait for the right one and shoot it in the head from up in the barn (prevents being caught in the mini stampede by that other cattle startled by the shot).

I am not saying that the practice is wrong, only that calling it "hunting" is pretty silly. On one of the hunting shows on OLN, there was a hunter guide that discussed "hunting" of deer and noted that hunters should be respectful of the animals. I found that really silly as well. Killing them is about the least respectful thing that can be done to them.

As for the public lands in Texas, Texas has less than pretty much every other state with the possible exception of Rhode Island. We don't have enough public land for the hunters. In fact, we really don't have much at all for any purpose.

[PSE]

do more deer exist w/ the feeders?
if the feeders were banned would the population decrease naturally?

[butch50]

The feeders are a double whammy to the deer - first the corn attracts them like heroin attracts a junky and second they spread the corn at precise times which the deer quickly learn. You don't even have to sit there all day, you know what time to be there.

Lack of public land is I believe the original culprit. Now the professional deer lease areas have fenced in their land with deer proof fences to keep the deer inside, and they are managed almost like cattle herds. I have a hard time understanding how we allowed laws that took free ranging deer that belonged to the public and allowed rich land owners to capture them and sell them to the highest bidder, who by the way sits over a timed feeder and just takes his pick.

I have been on a couple of those hunts and sat in the blinds and I have seen as many as 20 to 30 deer show up at times at one feeder. They come spooking up about 20 minutes early and once the corn flies they come right out into the open. The average shot I think from the feeders to the blinds that I have seen is about 50 yards.

I don't believe the feeders have much of an impact on the population density because they more or less act like a candy dispenser, not a main food source. Deer eat about like goats do and here in Texas there is plenty of food year round for them.

[Greenfurniture]

IMHO tree stands are the start of where hunting has gone bad. It's not sporting. Neither is hunting over a baited field.

[kingudaroad]

The whitetail population is huge in the Texas hill country where I hunt.It is not uncommon to have lots of deer under a feeder,however there are still big mature bucks that will not come to the feeder.Young bucks and does are there every time.Deer hunters in all regions will scout out their land to find feeding and bedding areas and set up to hunt where they know the deer will be.A good deer stand in Texas will not just be set up to hunt the feeder but will have views to many other hunting areas.When you talk about deer population management and the ability to grow and develop your deer herd the feeders certainly let you choose the deer to harvest. Older deer next to younger deer, young 8 point next to 5yr old cull buck...etc. Yes it is different from the way its done in other parts of the country.Is it sniper hunting? YES! Is it enjoyable and fun and a great way to introduce my sons to the brilliance of nature? YES! Is the venison on my table absolutly delicious? HELL YES! This is the hunting opportunity we have here in Texas. If you don't like it,don't participate! Its my freedom within the laws to hunt these deer, and I'm grateful for that freedom.

[tyme]

Originally Posted by greenfurniture

IMHO tree stands are the start of where hunting has gone bad. It's not sporting.

Curious -- Does that go for archery as well? Or do you consider that okay because of the added handicap of limited range?

I don't particularly like the idea of waiting in a stand/blind over an automatic feeder, but where do you draw the line? Are blinds over mechanical feeders okay? What about no blinds, setting up downwind of the feeder and hopefully not being too visible?

If you feel that feeder sniping isn't ethical at all, how do you feel about staking out a watering hole? What about getting up on a cliff where you can cover a long treeline? Is that fair? Do you have to teach the local deer to use rifles and then stalk them through the bush in order for the hunt to be fair?

[butch50]

So Tyme, if you cant draw a clear bright line then don't draw any line at all? Is that what you are saying? That logic falls down pretty quickly. If I was hungry and hunting for food to survive on there would be no line. We are not talking survival hunting, we are talking sport hunting. In sport hunting you have to have lines.

Hunting over bait is what Texans do, and that is an unfortunate and unchanging fact. Is it hunting? No, it is not hunting. It is baiting and target shooting. Would you consider it squirrel hunting to hunt over a feeder? Would you hunt rabbits over a head of lettuce while hiding out nearby? Why doesn't anyone do that? This thing called lease hunting has evolved over time into a commericalized industry of huge proportions and it is so successful for two reasons, lack of large areas of public hunting land and natural laziness.

Sport hunting is a set of skills that requires expert woodcraft and a great deal of knowledge of the habits and traits of the game animal, along with patience and a willingness to go for several seasons without taking an animal. Sport hunting is not about the results, it is about the process. In sport hunting when you harvest an animal it is a bonus event, not an expectation every trip to the woods.

A trophy deer taken off of a deer proof fenced in ranch that specializes in breeding and raising trophy deer that are trained to come to bait, and shot over that baited spot from a cushy blind at a pre-set time ain't a trophy gentlemen, it is a consumer paying the market fee for a set of antlers to put on his wall, and that consumer is being taken and skinned as badly as the deer was. Bait shooting appeals to the lazy. How much work is involved in driving within a half mile of a stand, walking the half mile, sitting down and waiting an hour, shooting a deer, going back to get the truck, load the deer in the truck and drive back to the camp? Laziness pure and simple.

I occasionaly hunt on public land, and the way I do it is to find the largest piece of land un-bisected by roads with the roughest terrain. I walk in to the middle as far away from the roads as possible and I rarely see anyone else back in there although I invariably pass a bunch of so called hunters who have stopped near the road to hunt. The rougher the terrain the fewer the hunters in there, especially if there are creeks to wade cross and brush to bust through. Most "hunters" are lazy and won't hunt more than 300 yards from a road. In fact in the years I have been hunting this way I have never seen anyone else more than 30 minutes walk from the nearest road.

Texans started down this bait shooting road because of the nature of Texas not having a lot of public land, and it has sadly evovled into a for profit industry fed by a lot of good people who think they are hunting, and don't have a clue as to the nature of what hunting truly is.

Let me ask one simple question - If the average Texan habituated to hunting over bait was to take his woodcraft and deer knowledge and go to say, Montana or Colorado, and go hunting on public land, do you think he would have a chance at getting a real trophy, or any deer at all?

[Art Eatman]

The reason there's little public land in Texas is simple: We retained ownership when we joined the Union. We then set up a homestead system for farmers and ranchers, and sold land (such as for the XIT Ranch) to raise money for public purposes.

Many parts of Texas, particularly in the forest areas of the east and the brush country of the south, pretty much require hunting from a stand or from a high-seat vehicle. You won't otherwise see deer.

Generally, "real" bucks don't go to a feeder. The does and little bucks will, but Ol' Biggie pretty much stays in the brush, just watching. Because of the does, Biggie will hang around and MAYBE offer an opportunity for a shot.

Part of this feeder/stand thing is from two factors: First, with so much of the society living in town, hunting skills (from the standpoint of stalking, etc.) are poor. Second, there is for many a time factor in that guys just can't spend more than a very few days in hunting.

As a generality, the Texas Hill Country is way over-populated with whitetails. Whatever can help reduce the numbers is by definition a Good Thing. Some areas, there oughta be a bounty on'em.

The high-dollar trophy-buck ranches, generally, have spent a ton of money on habitat improvement and herd management--which is why they're expensive and why they have big trophy bucks. By and large, a pasture is several thousand acres, which is fair chase no matter how high the fences. (The high fences are to keep other deer out, more than to keep "their" deer in.)

The State of Texas owns the deer, and sells you the license. What the landowner does is charge you for the right to trespass on his own private property.

Hey, there's no problem anywhere with hunting that cutting the US population by half wouldn't fix.

Art

[LHB1]

Butch,
If you don't like the way we hunt in Texas, you are free to hunt your way as long as it is safe and legal. If you don't like living here, then be advised that the roads into Texas also lead out of Texas.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

[ahenry]

Art pretty much covered the issue. I could probably toss in a penny or two more worth of info, but why bother? Butch you obviously don't like the way we do things in Texas, which leads me to quote LBH1, If you don't like the way we hunt in Texas, you are free to hunt your way as long as it is safe and legal. If you don't like living here, then be advised that the roads into Texas also lead out of Texas.. Like the old bumper sticker said, "Love New York? Take I35 North".

I personally love the fact that in Texas the overwhelming majority of the land is in private hands. Thats the friggin' way things are supposed to be! Where in the world does somebody get off thinking that they have some need to force the gov't to own land for their own use?

[MeekAndMild]

Bad part isn't shooting deer in baited fields. Bad part is that feeding increases population, deer fencing increases population, importing herds increases population and sooner or later you'll get a CWD outbreak.

They just had an outbreak of CWD in New York, outside the core 12 state area of initial infection, spread by similar game management methods? Come to think of it, isn't this the way the north centraql area became the core area in the first place, all because of the same methods, especially fencing and importing exotic herds?

Best way to stop CWD is to stop these practices. They may be legal, but since when was legal necessarily not stupid?

http://www.organicconsumers.org/madcow/texas3902.cfm

[tyme]

So Tyme, if you cant draw a clear bright line then don't draw any line at all? Is that what you are saying? That logic falls down pretty quickly.

How exactly does it fall down? Any possible line is just an opinion, and someone cannot claim that their choice places them on the moral high ground unless they provide a good argument -- better than anything anyone's presented yet -- for categorizing all those shades of gray as either "moral" or "immoral."

Just because I don't like the idea of stand hunting doesn't mean I can argue that stand hunting represents moral decay among hunters.

As for whether it's hunting or not, that's semantics disguised beneath an unsupported line you've drawn between the ethical and unethical.

[LAK]

Actually, there are some huge patches of public land in Texas that just are not open to hunting; State and National Parks.

Art

As a generality, the Texas Hill Country is way over-populated with whitetails. Whatever can help reduce the numbers is by definition a Good Thing. Some areas, there oughta be a bounty on'em.

Perhaps a better idea would be to just extend the season in certain areas.

And speaking of seasons, any idea why the pronghorn season is so short in Texas? I think it's a little window of about a week and a half if that. Even several years ago I was talking to a truck driver that said he had driven across west Texas and seen hordes of them - so many in fact that they were all over the roads in places.

[Fat White Boy]

I don't mind seeing people hunt from tree stands. We have arms and legs and can climb so, that seems pretty natural. Baiting fields isn't. But, that is the legal system in place in Texas, and it seems to work. I don't like it but, it's their business.

I, do however, disagree strongly that all land should be in private hands. That's the way it is in Europe. Only the rich hunt. I love our BLM land, our National forest land out here in the West. Hunting in most of the states West and North of Texas can be done by anyone, with a hunting license and no fees. I hunt pigs in California on private land, because it is reasonable. I hunt quail, chukar, ducks and deer on Public land and I can hunt Elk, Bear and Antelope, if I am lucky in the draws. All I have to do is buy a license and tags. That's the way it's supposed to be.

[Trxxx]

Taking an outside look at this... (and this is not intended to deliberately offend any Texans)

You could argue that it is more humane for the deer. Shots are taken at short range, at standing deer, from a steady rest. So I'd guess that clean, one-shot kills are the norm. And it's probably an efficient way of managing a deer herd - easy to pick out the ones to cull - and of harvesting venison.

But it's not hunting, as I understand it. Where's the skill? Hitting a deer-size target at 50yds? Paying someone a lot of money, climbing a tree stand and pulling the trigger when he says "Shoot that one" does not involve much in the way of talent. And if you happen to shoot a monster buck, so what? Is that trophy going to prove anything other than the ability to write a large cheque?

I can't begin to comprehend the mentality of someone who would consider a trophy taken like that something to be proud of, and not a permanent reminder of their inadequacies.

For me, the hunt is the thing. I truly don't care whether I shoot a buck, doe, stag, hind, or calf. The pleasure and satisfaction comes from having done things myself, finding deer, making a suitable approach to a wild animal so it remains unaware of your presence, then taking it with one clean, well-placed shot. That, for me, is hunting. Harvesting a virtually domesticated animal is shooting. There's a big difference.

[Trxxx]

I do however, disagree strongly that all land should be in private hands. That's the way it is in Europe. Only the rich hunt

That seems to be a common misconception in the USA so let's clear it up.

It's certainly true that the vast majority of the land is privately owned, and there is no public hunting as you understand it in the USA.

However, it is not true that only the rich hunt. In the UK, many private landowners have neither the time nor inclination to hunt themselves and will give permission for others to hunt on their land. There is also a lot of shooting available at surprisingly modest cost, particulary for female deer in the winter. (Although you will, of course, pay top dollar for trophy stags.) And if you are good enough, there are some situations where you can actually be paid to shoot deer.

On mainland Europe, there are a lot of local shooting associations and syndicates which allow working people to enjoy hunting. It's just organised on different lines from those you are familiar with in the USA.

[butch50]

Butch,
If you don't like the way we hunt in Texas, you are free to hunt your way as long as it is safe and legal. If you don't like living here, then be advised that the roads into Texas also lead out of Texas.

I don't like the way we hunt in Texas, I think that has been fairly obvious from my opening statement on down. And the fact is that it isn't going to change because of my opinion. It is a loss to those who think they are hunting, but do not know the real pleasures of real hunting because they grew up within this deer shooting for profit system, and have no other experiences to compare to. That is the shame of it. What we do in Texas isn't Deer Hunting, it is quite simply "Deer Shooting" which only requires the expenditure of money, not skill or talent or even much luck. By the way, I will continue to hunt my way thank you very much, and any animals that I take will be well and truly taken in a sporting manner. I can tell you for a fact that I will expend 10 times more energy just dragging my deer back to my truck than the combined energy expended by any 100 typical Deer Shooters.

As for those roads leading out of Texas - both sides of my family have been here for 6 generations or longer (from way before Deer Shooting for Profit got started), how about yours? If you don't like Texans with outspoken opinions then maybe you should take that trip up north?

I also do not suggest that we liberate private lands for the public. I am saying that because we have so little public land that this Deer Shooting system has evolved. It didn't start out to be this way, but the landowners quickly figured out there is a big profit to be made off of city dudes without access to hunting land, and the more guns they could squeeze onto their land the more money they could make. Then they realized that if they fenced the deer in (deer that used to belong to the public but have been pirated by the lease owners, and there must have been some bribery in Austin to make that one legal) that they could harvest even more profit from the city dude herds.

And no one has yet to challenge my assertions of laziness, nor has anyone answered my question about the success rate of a Texan Deer Shooter going to a wild place and actually hunting.

[kingudaroad]

Just read a story about a northern California deer hunter who has found a way to see a lot more deer. He uses a fawn in distress call and they all come runnin to save the little baby. Now theres a sporting effort. But I guess thats alright because hes not in Texas.

[LHB1]

Butch,
You are the one doing all the griping and complaining.

Good shooting and be safe. Try to be happy too.
LB

[taralon]

Butch,

I'll start by saying that I've never lived in Texas. I grew up in Colorado, still live in Colorado and truly can't believe I'll live anywhere else. Still I agree with you about Texas hunting, the 'average' Texas hunter, and the poor experience that anyone hunting over bait has, and in many cases don't realize how poor it is.

Colorado to the west and east of the front range is still only marginally populated. The land is wild and rough, and opening day many areas in Colorado see only 1 hunter for every 2 or 3 square miles, though the deer population is many times that. Especially in the north east sandhills one might spend days hunting on private land (which is basically open to the public as long as you ask the landowner) and not see a single other hunter. Or a deer for that matter.

My former boss owned a several thousand acres of irrigated farmland and much, much more in grassland. He had one year while I was in college an associate up from Texas, one that wished to hunt in Colorado for a 'big mulie' but who had no experience hunting outside of a stand and over bait. I was given the opportunity to guide the associate around for a little bit of money, something that I enjoyed immensely and wish I could do for a full time job. To say that it was an experience for him to truly get out and truly 'hunt' deer for the first time would be an understatement. He couldn't believe the number of deer, and the size we seen even though we weren't glassing as he had seen in a couple hunting programs, it was late in the season, and we were moving more or less at random as far as he could tell. Still there was a method behind our movements. I'm not a 'big' deer hunter myself, but I've seen enough big mulies while out stomping around for pheasant that I know what they like, ie water close to a cornfield and most typically an alfalfa field nearby.

After three days of traipsing around he was beginning to get a little annoyed that I wouldn't let him take a shot at the 'big' deer we were seeing. Little did he know that the six and eights pointers we were seeing were a little on the small side. Day four I was scouting around a water tank for tracks and came across some really massive prints heading up into a really rough set of hills. We decided to follow them and after an hour of scouting, tracking, and humping over some impassible to vehicle sand hills we were looking on a mulie from 75 yards that had an impressive 9 point rack. After what the hunter said was the most adrenaline pumped shot he had ever made, and a beautiful hit, we had the 'pleasure' of carrying the carcass back out, all 375lbs of it. Which was more work than the entire hunt, luckily plastic tarps drag well over stand and grass.

I'm told that that hunter has refused to hunt anything over bait, including during one Canadian black bear hunt, because he had decided after that one experience that he trully wanted to experience 'fair chase' on each and every hunt.

Now determining what 'fair chase' truly is, is another question. There needs to be a line, but like most ethical lines it is not a clear cut one.

Is setting decoys and using calls to draw in game birds like doves, turkey, ducks and geese included in 'fair chase' in my mind? Yes. Conversely is groundshooting birds 'fair chase'? In the case of running pheasant (because in a given year I may never actually see a flying bird in my area) and turkey, I'd say yes.

Using scent and calls for deer and elk? Sure, since you aren't 'training' the game to come to the same place every day, at the same time, I'd say that this is in the spirit of 'fair chase'. Now hunting over bait that is spread every day at precisely 9AM or over a block of salt that you placed and you know the deer use? Gray area here. Hunting a watering hole or a bedding area? Once again gray, depending on the conditions in the area I may or may not do this.

If the only big game 'hunting' you have ever done is over bait, then you've never really hunted. A person IMHO doesn't really know what hunting is until you've tracked the animal down, slowly stalked within firing range, and taken the game. There is a sense of satisfaction that comes from knowning that 'I did this' that one doesn't get from sitting in a stand, waiting for something to walk up so you can shoot it.

YMMV

[KKirk]

My opinion on it is that a trained chimp could do the hunting over bait in a stand. I prefer the traditional way of hunting from the ground, with no baiting. But if people want to hunt over bait, so be it. It's their right as long as its allow.

[UT_Air_Assault]

My family owns two 500 acre cattle ranches in Live Oak County in South Texas so I have hunted extensively in the above described manner. I must say that it is rather unsporting. I get in my truck, wearing jeans & a T-shirt, with my coffee, drive to about 1/4 miles away, get into one of my blinds about 75 yards away, pull out a book or my lap-top and start doing my homework as I wait for Bambi to come strolling out. When he comes out, I have an easy shot on a stationary target and they never usually make it more than a few yards after being shot. While this may not be overly sporting, it is still hunting and I see no ethical problems with it.
I believe most people's problems are with the "mall-ninjas" or "chairbrone rangers" who roll up all decked out head to toe with camo, the latest wiz bang gadets & optics and all this other unnesicary crap to sit in a blind and they think they are some hot[color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] hunters when they shoot Bambi at 50 yards with a scope rifle as he eats from a feeder. Than they usually want to boast about what a challange/accomplishment it was It's not much of challenge or a much of skill required aside from being able to shoot and keep your mouth shut in the blind. As someone else said, if you dropped off a Texas hunter such as myself in Alaska, Colorado or somewhere else where real hunting skill is required we'd have little idea on how to hunt, except strolling around with a rifle hopping to see something.