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Old August 17, 2017, 12:26 PM   #1
TruthTellers
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1851 Navy conversion

I've been thinking about converting a steel frame .36 caliber Pietta 51 Navy that I got last year to a Howell gated .38 Colt. I have a few questions tho.

1. Does the Howell conversion require drilling holes into the breech or can it just be put in without any holes? I know that the loading gate area will have to be milled out to fit .38 ammo.

2. I would prefer to load my own .38 Short and Long Colt ammo. Who offers hollow base bullets and what's a good powder and charge for shooting that ammo in a 1851 conversion?

Also, is it possible to convert a .36 caliber 1851 Navy to a .44 by just changing the cylinder and barrel?
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Old August 17, 2017, 12:37 PM   #2
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You cannot change out the cylinder for a .44 as it would need the water table lower as is on the 1860 Army.

I'm not sure about finding HB lead bullets in that size but Accurate Molds can likely help you out there. You can create whatever you want to a point.
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Old August 17, 2017, 12:51 PM   #3
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I'm not into casting bullets. If I can't get any lead bullets with a hollow base, I'll buy standard bullets already sized and lubed and drill a hole in the base, which is probably the better way to go as I'll be able to load and shoot very common bullets.
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Old August 17, 2017, 01:17 PM   #4
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Hmmm... interesting idea. But are there that many bullets that come in the diameter you'd need (~.375"). I know a hollow base will blow open to grab rifling and seal but would a .358" bullet reach that far without breaking and sealing the barrel completely?
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Old August 17, 2017, 01:50 PM   #5
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Most of the .38 Colt hollow base ammo I see that's factory loaded is .358 and is marketed to work in .38 Special and 1851 conversions with .375 diameter bores and fps is quite low, below 700 fps.

I don't think a bullet with a shallow blind hole in the base is going to break if it's on the soft side and is being pushed at 800 fps or slower.
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Old August 17, 2017, 01:52 PM   #6
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A reminder that, depending on where you live, making a gun without paperwork may be illegal, and that is what you are doing, making a gun (fixed ammunition) out of a non-gun (cap-and-ball percussion).

Jim
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Old August 17, 2017, 08:43 PM   #7
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I'd think that there's a very specific skirt thickness needed. Too thick and it won't fill the grooves and too shallow and it may break off, especially dealing with lower pressures unlike Minies. Of course I haven't a clue how much would be necessary and aren't that familiar with HB bullets.
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Old August 17, 2017, 10:01 PM   #8
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This gentleman will reline your barrel to 357 for $150:
http://www.cartridgeconversion.com/SERVICES.php

Personally I'd go that route since you plan on cutting the recoil shield for a loading gate.
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Old August 17, 2017, 10:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drobs View Post
This gentleman will reline your barrel to 357 for $150:
http://www.cartridgeconversion.com/SERVICES.php

Personally I'd go that route since you plan on cutting the recoil shield for a loading gate.
I was thinking that if I were to reline a barrel, I'd want a 5 inch Sheriff length barrel to be done.

I may go that route.
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Old August 18, 2017, 10:07 AM   #10
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Quote:
I'd think that there's a very specific skirt thickness needed. Too thick and it won't fill the grooves and too shallow and it may break off, especially dealing with lower pressures unlike Minies. Of course I haven't a clue how much would be necessary and aren't that familiar with HB bullets.
At revolver pressures a skirt would have to be thin to expand. I would think a thin skirt made of pure lead would expand without splitting. A thick skirt won't expand enough if any. I know a thick skirted .58 minnie with 70 grains of powder behind it won't expand enough and that's only .002-.003 undersize.
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Old August 18, 2017, 11:31 AM   #11
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Precisely. Because it's a lower pressure/velocity it would need to be pretty thin. But then, I'm just guessing here, it would be a bit of a task to get just the desired thickness without weakening the skirt.

And from the few bore sizes I've seen listed these repros have deep grooves much like a PRB barrel.

Lining the barrel just seems so much better of an idea. And less work too if a proper bullet couldn't be found.
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Old August 18, 2017, 04:16 PM   #12
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I don't think anybody answered if the holes do need to be drilled to mount the breech of the Howell conversion cylinder.
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Old August 18, 2017, 05:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
I don't think anybody answered if the holes do need to be drilled to mount the breech of the Howell conversion cylinder.
Yes they do.
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Old August 18, 2017, 11:56 PM   #14
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By the time you line the barrel, buy the gated conversion cylinder and whatever else is needed you will have spent a lot more money than if you had sold your 1851 and bought a cartridge conversion 1851. Me, I just have my conversion cylinders in .38 and shoot HBWC bullets in my .36 cap & ball revolvers. With .45's you have none of the problems with undersized bullets so you can pretty much use any .45 style lead bulllet. I have 5 Howell conversion cylinders, one for my Uberti 1848 .32, a .38 for my 1858 Euroarms .36, a .38 for my 1851 Pietta .36, a .45 for my 1858 .44 and a .45 for my Rogers and Spencer .44. All are the ones with the separate cylinder and cap & firing pins and all work well. I have purchased these over the years and have paid less than what i could sell them for today, My next purchase will be one for my Uberti 1860, just waiting for them to come on sale again.

I am still tempted to buy a couple of cartridge conversion revolvers.
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Old August 19, 2017, 12:36 AM   #15
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Gaucho, will any hollow base .38 bullets work? How soft does the lead have to be and how large does the hollow in the base have to be?
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Old August 19, 2017, 08:16 PM   #16
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Here is long thread on another black powder website where the poster discusses doing exactly what you are asking, converting an 1851 to a Howell conversion. Lots of good info here:

http://blackpowdersmoke.com/colt/ind...ic,2465.0.html
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Old August 19, 2017, 08:59 PM   #17
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Idk, this is starting to look like it's more work than it's worth. Were the bore not oversized to force me to either have it relined or use only hollow base bullets I might still be interested.

As of now, I'm losing interest. I'd probably be better off getting an 1860 and converting that.
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Old August 19, 2017, 10:26 PM   #18
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TruthTellers, the lead has to be fairly soft like maybe 10-12 BN. But with a .44 black powder revolver it is a lot easier and a lot of people say their cartridge conversion revolvers are just as accurate as their modern .45 Colt revolvers. I have no complaints with mine and I would say my conversion cylinder in my Rogers & Spencer gives nothing up to modern .45's in accuracy. The lockup of the conversion cylinder puts many modern guns to shame. The only minus is the high awkward hammer to cock the gun.

My Uberti 1860 Colt has the same Navy grip frame as the 1851. most of them have the longer Army grip frame. It makes it for some reason even more natural in my hand than even an 1851. It is rather hard to explain but just like my Euroarms .38 1858 Remington which is built on the 2\3 to 3\4 size frame in comparison to the .44 1858 frame as the originals were, it just fits my hand naturally. I hope I have not confused you. I have to get a conversion cylinder for my 1860 next time they come on sale
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Old August 20, 2017, 12:46 PM   #19
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Been looking at my options. The difference between the Howell and Kirst Conversions are the Howell gated conversion requires affixing the backplate to the frame while the Kirst doesn't? If so, I'm going with a Kirst if I convert the 1851 as I would still like to be able to switch back to shooting percussion.
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Old August 20, 2017, 09:40 PM   #20
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Just an FYI...
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/682457269
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/685315496
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/673602922
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