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Old June 21, 2017, 07:16 AM   #26
Rookie21
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Just my $0.02 here from a competitive stand point. There is a lot of misinformation on the web about why grease or lubricant is used in front of the ball. It is a bullet lubricant. Nothing more. It does not protect against a chain fire. With a loaded cylinder as soon as you touch off the first shot - at least with bore butter and other lubricants of similar softness - the surrounding lube on the other chambers melts from the flash. The grease is a bullet lubricant much like we see modern hard cast bullets for conventional guns have grease or lube rings.

A properly fit ball should shave a ring of lead all the way around the mouth of the chamber with out a break anywhere. If it has a break the ball had a flat spot and said flat spot could create a gap between the ball and the chamber wall. This gap of course leaves the powder (if no wad) exposed to a possible chain fire. The grease could in theory be enough to prevent the exciting event but it's not a sure thing.

Two theories for a wad. It cuts on fouling and or keeps the charge from deforming the back side of the ball possibly causing leading issues. Probably helps on hotter loads but lighter target loads it's not needed. I've never used em.

Hope this helps. And I use white lithium grease from hardware store for bullet lube. Doesn't melt in summer, doesn't harden in winter.
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Old June 21, 2017, 07:28 AM   #27
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I might look into / try --- getting a piece of 3/8's felt & some Bee's Wax from the local crafts store and making my own front of the ball wads ?
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Old June 21, 2017, 07:30 AM   #28
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There is a lot of misinformation on the web about why grease or lubricant is used in front of the ball. It is a bullet lubricant. Nothing more. It does not protect against a chain fire.
Yes it does. All it needs to stop a chain is a little dab around the edge of the balls. All of it doesn't melt out. Actually most of it doesn't melt it gets blown all over the gun because most people think they need to fill the void between ball and chamber mouth. That is not the case.
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Old June 21, 2017, 07:32 AM   #29
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Probably more work than its worth. I don't think it will libricate the ball for going down the bore and you may see leading issues. Maybe not. If you are going to try that tough check out track of the wolf or Dixie gun works - they sell wad punches in different diameters. Might make the experiment easier. Good luck!
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Old June 21, 2017, 07:56 AM   #30
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I already make my own wads and have for years. As long as you use soft lead you won't get any leading. The lube just helps keep fouling soft. The reason I say over ball lube prevents chain fires is because I have one that cuts a good ring but if no wad or over ball lube is used it will chain.
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Old June 21, 2017, 08:06 AM   #31
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Well now I'm stumped. If it cuts a ring there shouldn't be a way for an ember to ignite it. So I'm puzzled at that. I still feel that a lubricant isn't a primary reason for avoiding chain fires. It could help sure but it's not the primary reason for it.
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Old June 21, 2017, 08:35 AM   #32
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Well now I'm stumped. If it cuts a ring there shouldn't be a way for an ember to ignite it.
What I said but it always has. Something hokey with the chambers I'm sure.

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I still feel that a lubricant isn't a primary reason for avoiding chain fires. It could help sure but it's not the primary reason for it.
Agreed but it does prevent them. No getting around that.
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Old June 21, 2017, 08:58 AM   #33
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If your chain fire issue is from the mouth of the chamber perhaps... correctly fitting caps is another common issue. I pinch mine. Helps keep em on. Ymmv. I really don't like how "grease prevents chain fires" sound though. A properly fitted ball is important. And should be a first concern when developing a load or shooting a revolver period.
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Old June 21, 2017, 11:49 AM   #34
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This fella makes an argument that it's possible, in a gun that chain fires frequently, that the chambers might not have been cut perfectly round.

He tested that theory by loading a cylinder w/ ball only (no powder no wad), wrapping the cylinder with a big sheet of aluminum foil, and shinning a bore-light up the nipple hole in a dark room at night. He was able to see lighted rings around the balls in 3 chambers.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrfBOJnw06U
Note the video is just him explaining his theories. The test above is not actually shown.


Here's an interesting video. Every find you brought the wrong ammo for your C&B revolver? Have .36 cal ball and a 44 cal C&B revolver - patched ball to the rescue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdCY59tDbog
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Old June 21, 2017, 12:49 PM   #35
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If your chain fire issue is from the mouth of the chamber perhaps... correctly fitting caps is another common issue. I pinch mine. Helps keep em on. Ymmv.
Nope. I can load all the chambers and cap one nipple at a time and it won't chain unless I leave out the wad or lube.

Quote:
I really don't like how "grease prevents chain fires" sound though. A properly fitted ball is important. And should be a first concern when developing a load or shooting a revolver period.
Like it or not it works. Balls cut a good ring but there's something wonky with the chambers. Balls don't move under recoil. I bought this particular gun new in 69 and it's always done it.
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Old June 21, 2017, 03:15 PM   #36
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Hawg,
Slightly bevel the chamber mouths on that chain gun and see if the problem goes away. I bet you have a bit of overhang or lipping on the chamber mouths and you may be cutting the balls a few thou out of round.
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Old June 21, 2017, 06:56 PM   #37
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Worth a try I guess but you'd think that all the rounds that have gone through it in the last 48 years would have taken care of that.
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Old July 2, 2017, 04:53 PM   #38
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I have used all of these methods including compressing corn meal over the compressed ball. Fill up the cylinders with corn meal after ramming the ball and then compress again.i got this from a fellow CAS shooter. I like to put Wonder Lube or Crisco over the edge of the balls with a large syringe but here in Texas the weather will melt out the lube on a hot gun on a hot day so I had to mix my own lube and beeswax and then on a cold day it is too thick to squeeze out of the syringe. So I started using the corn meal with tight fitting ball. I have never had a chain fire with any of the methods.
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Old July 8, 2017, 11:39 PM   #39
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Nope. I can load all the chambers and cap one nipple at a time and it won't chain unless I leave out the wad or lube
You can induce chain fires by leaving out wads and grease?
I never use wads or grease and I can't do it. Never a chainfire.

I'm curious on what's wrong with these particular guns. I don't see sloppy grease which freezes in the winter being the best solution. I also like to leave my chambers loaded over a period of time and still fire, hence my hesitation to put anything greased by the powder.
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Old July 9, 2017, 04:56 AM   #40
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You can induce chain fires by leaving out wads and grease?
I can with that one gun. I've tried it with others and got no chain fire.
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Old July 9, 2017, 06:53 AM   #41
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Elmer Keith believed that chain fires were the result of ill fitting caps. Putting grease over the cylinder mouth is supposed to keep the fouling soft.

OK, that's the theory. No soldier in the Civil War ever did that.
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Old July 9, 2017, 08:29 AM   #42
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The real cure to avoiding chain fires is to get old, be short on patience and just load one chamber.
That's so you can get on with the shooting part, instead of the loading part.
By the time ya' load all six chambers, yer too tired to shoot.
See how simple life can be.
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Old July 9, 2017, 08:53 AM   #43
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One cylinder at a time is no fun though. Killjoy.
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Old July 9, 2017, 05:49 PM   #44
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you can do both but no need to be redundant
Also bore butter is really too soft for over ball lube.
First shot will blow most of it off the others, especially on a hot day. But it does work
Back in the 70's all we had locally was dry wads
Back then CVA made a patch grease, real thick but could be smeared
load powder, then dry wad, squeeze a bit ontop of the wad, load the ball
CVA doesn't make it anymore.
You can use the bore butter on top of wad, then your projectile, or make your own lube easy enough
I shot a long time with no lube just powder and tight fitting ball never had a chain fire.
lube is primarily to help keep the fouling soft so you can shoot longer without cleaning
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Old July 11, 2017, 07:00 AM   #45
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I like Mr. Kelly's way of thinking.
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Old July 12, 2017, 12:47 PM   #46
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Ill fitting primers have been accused of causing as many or even more chain fires than from the other end.
I would think this would be easy to test by shooting a revolver with only one cap on one cylinder. If vent gasses were a culprit perhaps this would make chain fires happen "on demand"?

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Old July 12, 2017, 01:59 PM   #47
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I would think this would be easy to test by shooting a revolver with only one cap on one cylinder. If vent gasses were a culprit perhaps this would make chain fires happen "on demand"?
I've done that. No chain fire.
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Old July 12, 2017, 04:02 PM   #48
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I use the lubed wads. Not a whole lot of lube to ooze. A little doesn't hurt unless it is petroleum based.
I had a cross fire in the 1858 using triple seven. I don't remember the size of the ball but it could have been .452.
I use two wads over the powder and .457 balls mostly. The cylinder shaves off the excess but it give a little more bearing surface, in the bore and slightly heavier projectile. Haven't had cross fires since.
The nipples were questionable and generally disintegrated the caps so changed them to vented style nipples.
I have fooled with Crisco and it is a mess. In muzzle loader rifle, in the cavity and in grooves it was supposed to keep powder residue soft, and easier for the next minnie ball to scrape to the bottom of the barrel for next shot. maybe the Crisco gave a boost in velocity from the dieseling effect.
The lubed wads might b thee best option now for black powder, or even triple seven.
Maybe unlubed wads will work just as well.
Someone do some testing and report back, maybe?
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Old July 15, 2017, 10:07 AM   #49
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Couple of weeks ago I loaded my 1860 Pietta with powder (Pyrodex P), lubed wad and ball but didn't shoot for about a week. Capped it and shot it in the back yard and got six "poof" loads. Enough heat in the house to melt lube and foul the powder. One ball was left in a chamber, never made it to the forcing cone. These wads were commercially available, not my own.

Did this same operation last winter without such incident. Lesson learned: No pre-loading with greased wads til I shoot, in the good ol' summertime.
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Old July 15, 2017, 10:26 AM   #50
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Back 100 years ago when I used my T/C Hawkins - powder + patched ball - then a drop or two of oil on top of the ball ----- never had a problem --- right or wrong - it worked for me

With my new pistols -- powder + wonder wad + ball -- whatever lubrication there is - its behind the ball ?

What I'll probably do is -- either drop another wad on top or just a bit of bore butter --
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