Need Help!

SIXTRE63 · February 4, 2011, 11:03 PM

Hello all,

I am fairly new in the firearm world and need some help. I recently acquired my FOID in Illinois. My grandma has been waiting for this occasion to give me the guns my grandfather left her when he passed away. She has 2 pistols, a .38 S&W with "US REVOLVER CO" on the barrel. Also, she has a revolver that I believe is a .22 caliber with "H & R Arms Company Worcester". on the barrel along with "YOUTH AMERICA DOUBLE ACTION". However the ones that intrigue me the most is a rifle and a muzzle-loader. The rifle has limited markings, It is hard to make out but I can see the numbers "114215" and what might be the initials "S.W.G.M." Also there appears to be in real tiny numbers "815" and the letter "N" by itself. And the muzzle-loader has virtually no markings. I was wondering if someone can please help me identify these firearms and maybe their value.

SIXTRE63 · February 4, 2011, 11:10 PM

more pics

SIXTRE63 · February 4, 2011, 11:17 PM

even more

SIXTRE63 · February 4, 2011, 11:27 PM

last one

HottAK47 · February 5, 2011, 12:53 PM

The American Revolver Co. is a no frills version of the same pistol made by Iver Johnson without the hammer blocking safety. It and the Young America are sutible for black powder cartridges only (although I have shot the .22 with CB caps). These both usualy are valued at $75 to $150 whith yours being at the low end of that due to condition.
Neither of these need to be transfered through an FFL due to age(pre 1898)

I dont know nothing from nothing abour schutzen rifles with Martini type actions except to call the cartridge rifle one. Hope this helps

SIXTRE63 · February 5, 2011, 06:08 PM

Thanks HOTTAK,

I knew a little about the Iver Johnson from reading other threads here on TFL. The thing that stands out to me about that one is the "COLT" on the handle. All the other pics I have seen have "US" on the handle and I saw S&W also has a similar looking revolver.

Jim Watson · February 5, 2011, 06:30 PM

Colt did not make top break revolvers. It just chanced that a Colt hard rubber grip was close enough in size and shape to use as a replacement on the IJ.

The Martini Scheutzen is a nice rifle with the problem that German target shooters generally stored their peep sights off the gun so when the American MPs came around to confiscate weapons in the Occupation, they did not get the sight.

The muzzle loader looks odd. I do not see a hammer, please show a picture of the right side. I see what looks like a clock winding key on the left side opposite a normal sidelock. That is strange. You may not have a conventional muzzleloader.

SIXTRE63 · February 6, 2011, 04:43 AM

Jim,

That is kinda what I was expecting to here about the IJ. The Martini unfortunately is missing what I can only describe as the upper receiver. Any idea on the value from what you can see. I checked out gunbroker and found similar ones but I am absolutely in the dark about antiques. You are correct, there is no hammer on the muzzle-loader, I was a little confused myself because it has what appears to be a stem thing on the right side maybe to put a precusion cap on, or something to that nature, but nothing to strike it. I will get more pictures as soon as I can. Thank you all again for your help.

James K · February 6, 2011, 02:36 PM

The Schutzen rifle is missing its breechblock; if it is not around somewhere, your chance of ever replacing it is nil. Without it the gun has little value beyond a nice wall hanger.

The muzzle loader may be an air gun; that looks like a pump at the butt.

Jim

JiminTexas · February 7, 2011, 12:11 AM

The U.S. Revolver is NOT an antique. It was made in the early 1900's NOT before 1898. It is NOT a black powder cartridge. The 38 S&W was never a black powder cartridge. The cartridge was developed in 1877 by S&W, after the arrival of smokeless powder. It is C&R elligible. It's value in this condition would be just under $100. If I were you I'd keep it to remember my Grandpa by, that's got to be worth a whole lot more than 100 bucks, even if you could get that much for it.

JiminTexas · February 7, 2011, 12:12 AM

Hey Jim - Is that a Martini Enfield action? It looks like one. If it is, you just might find that breech block.

Jim Watson · February 7, 2011, 12:21 AM

I could not see in the picture that the Martini Scheutzen was missing its breechblock. I don't think you have much chance of finding one, it is not a standard production model like a Martini Henry military rifle.

Quote:

The 38 S&W was never a black powder cartridge. The cartridge was developed in 1877 by S&W, after the arrival of smokeless powder.

I have to argue that.
The .38 S&W was indeed originally a black powder cartridge.
Reliable smokeless powder was not readily available until the 1880s and then only in military weapons like the 8mm Lebel. Even the .38 Special of 1899 came out in black powder although it was very soon loaded smokeless.

SIXTRE63 · February 7, 2011, 10:21 AM

Hey all, I will try to get more pics of the muzzle loader up later today, and while I am at my grandmas I will dig around and hopefully find that breechblock. If I am unable to locate it, is there any way to retro fit a similar one into it? Any ideas on what the Martini Scheutzen is worth complete? If there is any extra photos I can take that would help, I will be happy to post them, just let me know specifically what you are looking for. Thanks.

32 Magnum · February 7, 2011, 12:22 PM

Iver Johnson didn't complete their switch over from black powder capable revolvers to smokeless/nitro powder rounds until 1909. H&R was a little quicker with the change over completed in 1905.
The YOUNG AMERICA DOUBLE ACTION with a blued trigger guard was made after 1897 but before 1905 - as there is no cartridge denominator stamp on the left side of the barrel. It is questionalbe whether that one is NFA "antique" also - chances are about 1 in 5 (20%) that it is. The U.S. Revolver line by I.J. was not offered until after 1910 - probably closer to 1912 - so that one is definitely NOT an antique by NFA definition.
The German "shutzen" is a classic - too bad it's incomplete - some sell, in exceptional condition with extra appointments for $5K - $6K around here. Perhaps the breech is hidden somewhere in the house or with important papers, etc. It would be great for you to have it - it's worth looking for.

HottAK47 · February 7, 2011, 02:00 PM

I would think that if the schutzen was built on a standard Martini action rather than a "Martini type" a breechblock would, in theory, be obtainable. Keep looking for the lost one, though.

James K · February 7, 2011, 02:12 PM

Those German Martini type actions were turned out by a number of gun makers and guilds in Germany and in some other countries, like Austria and Switzerland. They did not use any British or Commonwealth military Martini actions; they made their own. I will reiterate, painful to the owner though it may be, that if the breechblock is not found, finding a replacement would be as close to impossible as anything can be.

In theory, a skilled craftsman could figure out what the block looked like, and manufacture one, but the cost would be likely be in the thousands and I know of no one who would take on such a job.

On another topic, smokeless powder was invented in 1884 by Paul Vieille, a French chemist, but did not come into common use in the U.S. until the early 1890's. The first American cartridge made exclusively for smokeless powder was the .30 military (.30-40 Krag), followed soon after by the .30 Winchester Center Fire (.30-30). The first Winchester rifle to be made for smokeless powder was the Model 1894, but other Winchester rifles dating to the black powder era (the Model 1873 and 1892 for example) were never upgraded, though they continued in production for many years.

A rough rule is that no gun made prior to 1910 can be assumed to be made for smokeless powder, but even that is not a hard rule because old guns still in production were often not changed or strengthened.

Jim

SIXTRE63 · February 7, 2011, 09:08 PM

Ok, here are a few more shots of the muzzle loader, It looks like there was a hammer at one point but it ran away with breechblock from the Martini. I hope these pics can help identify this beast. No luck in finding the breechblock but my grandma is going to keep diggin.

SIXTRE63 · February 7, 2011, 09:20 PM

a few more

HottAK47 · February 8, 2011, 09:08 PM

Was your granddad a vet? I cant think of any other reason for the duffle cut. Add that to the Schutzen and you got pretty good evidence of vet bring backs.

SIXTRE63 · February 8, 2011, 10:20 PM

He was a Korean War vet and my grandmas grandfather was a colonel in the civil war. The Shutzen may have made its way here from Europe with my great great grandma, but no one can say for sure. Is there anyway to tell who made or where the Shutzen was made by the markings on the nose of the barrel?

February 7, 2011, 02:12 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Those German Martini type actions were turned out by a number of gun makers and guilds in Germany and in some other countries, like Austria and Switzerland. They did not use any British or Commonwealth military Martini actions; they made their own. I will reiterate, painful to the owner though it may be, that if the breechblock is not found, finding a replacement would be as close to impossible as anything can be. In theory, a skilled craftsman could figure out what the block looked like, and manufacture one, but the cost would be likely be in the thousands and I know of no one who would take on such a job. On another topic, smokeless powder was invented in 1884 by Paul Vieille, a French chemist, but did not come into common use in the U.S. until the early 1890's. The first American cartridge made exclusively for smokeless powder was the .30 military (.30-40 Krag), followed soon after by the .30 Winchester Center Fire (.30-30). The first Winchester rifle to be made for smokeless powder was the Model 1894, but other Winchester rifles dating to the black powder era (the Model 1873 and 1892 for example) were never upgraded, though they continued in production for many years. A rough rule is that no gun made prior to 1910 can be assumed to be made for smokeless powder, but even that is not a hard rule because old guns still in production were often not changed or strengthened. Jim Last edited by James K; February 7, 2011 at 02:25 PM.

February 5, 2011, 12:53 PM	#5
HottAK47 Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Posts: 29	The American Revolver Co. is a no frills version of the same pistol made by Iver Johnson without the hammer blocking safety. It and the Young America are sutible for black powder cartridges only (although I have shot the .22 with CB caps). These both usualy are valued at $75 to $150 whith yours being at the low end of that due to condition. Neither of these need to be transfered through an FFL due to age(pre 1898) I dont know nothing from nothing abour schutzen rifles with Martini type actions except to call the cartridge rifle one. Hope this helps

February 5, 2011, 06:08 PM	#6
SIXTRE63 Junior Member Join Date: February 4, 2011 Posts: 10	Thanks HOTTAK, I knew a little about the Iver Johnson from reading other threads here on TFL. The thing that stands out to me about that one is the "COLT" on the handle. All the other pics I have seen have "US" on the handle and I saw S&W also has a similar looking revolver.

February 5, 2011, 06:30 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Colt did not make top break revolvers. It just chanced that a Colt hard rubber grip was close enough in size and shape to use as a replacement on the IJ. The Martini Scheutzen is a nice rifle with the problem that German target shooters generally stored their peep sights off the gun so when the American MPs came around to confiscate weapons in the Occupation, they did not get the sight. The muzzle loader looks odd. I do not see a hammer, please show a picture of the right side. I see what looks like a clock winding key on the left side opposite a normal sidelock. That is strange. You may not have a conventional muzzleloader.

February 6, 2011, 04:43 AM	#8
SIXTRE63 Junior Member Join Date: February 4, 2011 Posts: 10	Jim, That is kinda what I was expecting to here about the IJ. The Martini unfortunately is missing what I can only describe as the upper receiver. Any idea on the value from what you can see. I checked out gunbroker and found similar ones but I am absolutely in the dark about antiques. You are correct, there is no hammer on the muzzle-loader, I was a little confused myself because it has what appears to be a stem thing on the right side maybe to put a precusion cap on, or something to that nature, but nothing to strike it. I will get more pictures as soon as I can. Thank you all again for your help.

February 6, 2011, 02:36 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The Schutzen rifle is missing its breechblock; if it is not around somewhere, your chance of ever replacing it is nil. Without it the gun has little value beyond a nice wall hanger. The muzzle loader may be an air gun; that looks like a pump at the butt. Jim

February 7, 2011, 12:11 AM	#10
JiminTexas Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2010 Posts: 149	The U.S. Revolver is NOT an antique. It was made in the early 1900's NOT before 1898. It is NOT a black powder cartridge. The 38 S&W was never a black powder cartridge. The cartridge was developed in 1877 by S&W, after the arrival of smokeless powder. It is C&R elligible. It's value in this condition would be just under $100. If I were you I'd keep it to remember my Grandpa by, that's got to be worth a whole lot more than 100 bucks, even if you could get that much for it.

February 7, 2011, 12:12 AM	#11
JiminTexas Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2010 Posts: 149	Hey Jim - Is that a Martini Enfield action? It looks like one. If it is, you just might find that breech block.

February 7, 2011, 10:21 AM	#13
SIXTRE63 Junior Member Join Date: February 4, 2011 Posts: 10	Hey all, I will try to get more pics of the muzzle loader up later today, and while I am at my grandmas I will dig around and hopefully find that breechblock. If I am unable to locate it, is there any way to retro fit a similar one into it? Any ideas on what the Martini Scheutzen is worth complete? If there is any extra photos I can take that would help, I will be happy to post them, just let me know specifically what you are looking for. Thanks.

February 7, 2011, 12:22 PM	#14
32 Magnum Member In Memoriam Join Date: January 17, 2009 Location: Eastern PA Posts: 364	Iver Johnson didn't complete their switch over from black powder capable revolvers to smokeless/nitro powder rounds until 1909. H&R was a little quicker with the change over completed in 1905. The YOUNG AMERICA DOUBLE ACTION with a blued trigger guard was made after 1897 but before 1905 - as there is no cartridge denominator stamp on the left side of the barrel. It is questionalbe whether that one is NFA "antique" also - chances are about 1 in 5 (20%) that it is. The U.S. Revolver line by I.J. was not offered until after 1910 - probably closer to 1912 - so that one is definitely NOT an antique by NFA definition. The German "shutzen" is a classic - too bad it's incomplete - some sell, in exceptional condition with extra appointments for $5K - $6K around here. Perhaps the breech is hidden somewhere in the house or with important papers, etc. It would be great for you to have it - it's worth looking for.

February 7, 2011, 02:00 PM	#15
HottAK47 Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Posts: 29	I would think that if the schutzen was built on a standard Martini action rather than a "Martini type" a breechblock would, in theory, be obtainable. Keep looking for the lost one, though.

February 8, 2011, 09:08 PM	#19
HottAK47 Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Posts: 29	Was your granddad a vet? I cant think of any other reason for the duffle cut. Add that to the Schutzen and you got pretty good evidence of vet bring backs.

February 8, 2011, 10:20 PM	#20
SIXTRE63 Junior Member Join Date: February 4, 2011 Posts: 10	He was a Korean War vet and my grandmas grandfather was a colonel in the civil war. The Shutzen may have made its way here from Europe with my great great grandma, but no one can say for sure. Is there anyway to tell who made or where the Shutzen was made by the markings on the nose of the barrel?