Trying to size 7.62x51 - Page 3

Reloadron · December 21, 2016, 11:36 AM

OK, maybe "buckle" was a poor choice of words. The effect on the shoulders is a slight series of more like tiny divots when I run the die down more than normal. Similar to the effect you get exactly as mentioned with too much lube but only slight dimple effect. They are sized and can be loaded with the dimple effect blowing out on firing. The lube I am using is an RCBS aerosol can which is no longer made. Not the pump stuff but an actual aerosol can. Too bad they no longer market it.

All of this is here nor there with helping the original poster. This deep into the thread and so far we have no solution as to why his cases are not sizing? He has tried numerous dies with no changes. The dies have been run up and down with no changes. He has tried a shim under the case head in the shell holder with no change. So reading through all the post, what could cause his problem?

Ron

Reloadron · December 21, 2016, 11:42 AM

Quote:

I am very happy to report that my
Error was when I first started this thread
And it was suggested I anneal this
MG fired brass , unfortunately I
Just didn't heat the brass enough.
Digging out my propane torch
I use for plumbing work around the house
I experimented with different times.
The brass fits in my drill fine
With 3/4 sticking out. Heating the
Brass with it turning in the flame
For 30 sec works. 10 sec 20 sec
Didn't work.
Now the brass fits below max on
Wilson gauge. Reads 1.624 to
1.628 in headspace gauge.
Also I used full length sizing die,
Not the small base die.
I have brass for along time now.
It was suggested in videos I watched
This morning that after a few firing and reloading, anneal the brass again to
Extend its life.
I'll have to set something up better
Then holding a drill up to a flame.
Maybe I'll go to home depot and buy
Map gas , it hotter cut my time down to
Ten sec ?
I definitely appreciate everyone's
Info . lots of go stuff in this thread.
As frustrating as it was I definitely
Learned a lot.

Yay! I never would have thought... You can try the MAPP gas as it is a much hotter burn. I am just glad your frustration is over. As I mentioned I have a mountain of this WCC 10 brass which averages 1.640" to 1.645" and it sizes just fine, actually good stuff. All is well with a happy ending. Yay!

Ron

F. Guffey · December 21, 2016, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Digging out my propane torch
I use for plumbing work around the house
I experimented with different times.
The brass fits in my drill fine
With 3/4 sticking out. Heating the
Brass with it turning in the flame
For 30 sec works. 10 sec 20 sec
Didn't work.

I would suggest you proceed cautiously; I am not the fan of a new reloader being told 'all you gotta do is' when it comes to annealing. I would say you have violated all of my rules but with annealing very few soon to be annealer-s start with rules and factors.

F. Guffey

Metal god · December 21, 2016, 01:19 PM

I've done a good amount of annealing and would have to say ANYTHING past 10sec in the flame over heated the brass to the point of being to soft . I use the same method as you and I've never had to heat past 8sec to reach the proper temp of 750* at the shoulder & neck .

On a side note . I have a 150ct lot of WCC-06 cases that were a tad hard to size from once fired but did size fine . They are some of my best shooting brass and have been loaded 10 times and annealed once .

Bytesniffer · December 21, 2016, 01:32 PM

Metal god , reloadron
The propane tank I had was
Almost empty so I think flame
Was really week and I had to
Keep the brass on longer
To get it where it would resize.
With a stonger more intense
Flame think time will be shorter.

**Unclenick** · December 21, 2016, 01:40 PM

Could be. The case should never get visibly red and the flame should not flare yellowish. In either case you are oversoftening and weakening the brass. Indeed, if you find cases splitting in three to five firings, then you know you have over-softened it. Oversoftening may, however, enable easier forming of the stretched case by reducing the yield of the brass. In that case, you may find you need less heat applied in the future.

F. Guffey · December 21, 2016, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Could be. The case should never get visibly red and the flame should not flare yellowish. In either case you are oversoftening and weakening the brass. Indeed, if you find cases splitting in three to five firings, then you know you have over-softened it. Oversoftening may, however, enable easier forming of the stretched case by reducing the yield of the brass. In that case, you may find you need less heat applied in the future.

And again I would say he is into some risky stuff. He has gone from having trouble sizing a case without knowing what the problem was/is or could be to annealing in less than two 14 days. When it comes to annealing it is not the neck and shoulder I am concerned with; it is the case head.

He placed the case into a socket with 3/4" protruding and then spun the case with an electric drill thinking that is all he is required to do and he believes that is all he needs to know.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · December 21, 2016, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Was really week and I had to
Keep the brass on longer

I will assume the flame was week, an annealer person on this forum should be able to write a complete paragraph on those two short lines of information.

F. Guffey

Jimro · December 21, 2016, 05:03 PM

Quote:

The propane tank I had was
Almost empty so I think flame
Was really week and I had to
Keep the brass on longer
To get it where it would resize.
With a stonger more intense
Flame think time will be shorter.

Annealing took me a little time to develop a technique that worked well for me. I started off with the pie pan method (took forever for large batches), tried the drill method (waste of time), and now it's just fingers and watching for oxidation. Goes much faster for me now, hold the brass by the case head, rotate the shoulder area through the flame, watch as the oxide color changes, drop into a steel bucket. Goes by quick now.

Jimro

F. Guffey · December 21, 2016, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

I went to the armory and found a M 3 grease gun, and then I asked what I had to do to carry one of those. The number one job was the General's driver; and then I asked if the general had drivers that had no interest in looking sharp all the time.

F. Guffey

Jimro · December 22, 2016, 03:31 AM

F. Guffey,

If only the Army still had M3s! I wouldn't mind carrying one of those around, but the new M4A1s are full auto so we are back to the same situation when the M16A1 was introduced.

I'd say the Federal Law and ATF working definition of a "machine gun" doesn't really translate well into the military usage for "crew served weapons." That's why we refer to the M249 as a SAW (squad automatic weapon) rather than "machine gun" since it doesn't need a crew to feed it and hump it...

Jimro

December 21, 2016, 01:19 PM	#54
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,875	I've done a good amount of annealing and would have to say ANYTHING past 10sec in the flame over heated the brass to the point of being to soft . I use the same method as you and I've never had to heat past 8sec to reach the proper temp of 750* at the shoulder & neck . On a side note . I have a 150ct lot of WCC-06 cases that were a tad hard to size from once fired but did size fine . They are some of my best shooting brass and have been loaded 10 times and annealed once . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

December 21, 2016, 01:40 PM	#56
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Could be. The case should never get visibly red and the flame should not flare yellowish. In either case you are oversoftening and weakening the brass. Indeed, if you find cases splitting in three to five firings, then you know you have over-softened it. Oversoftening may, however, enable easier forming of the stretched case by reducing the yield of the brass. In that case, you may find you need less heat applied in the future. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 22, 2016, 03:31 AM	#61
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	F. Guffey, If only the Army still had M3s! I wouldn't mind carrying one of those around, but the new M4A1s are full auto so we are back to the same situation when the M16A1 was introduced. I'd say the Federal Law and ATF working definition of a "machine gun" doesn't really translate well into the military usage for "crew served weapons." That's why we refer to the M249 as a SAW (squad automatic weapon) rather than "machine gun" since it doesn't need a crew to feed it and hump it... Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

December 21, 2016, 11:36 AM	#51
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,750	OK, maybe "buckle" was a poor choice of words. The effect on the shoulders is a slight series of more like tiny divots when I run the die down more than normal. Similar to the effect you get exactly as mentioned with too much lube but only slight dimple effect. They are sized and can be loaded with the dimple effect blowing out on firing. The lube I am using is an RCBS aerosol can which is no longer made. Not the pump stuff but an actual aerosol can. Too bad they no longer market it. All of this is here nor there with helping the original poster. This deep into the thread and so far we have no solution as to why his cases are not sizing? He has tried numerous dies with no changes. The dies have been run up and down with no changes. He has tried a shim under the case head in the shell holder with no change. So reading through all the post, what could cause his problem? Ron

December 21, 2016, 01:32 PM	#55
Bytesniffer Member Join Date: November 29, 2016 Location: Long island ny Posts: 67	Metal god , reloadron The propane tank I had was Almost empty so I think flame Was really week and I had to Keep the brass on longer To get it where it would resize. With a stonger more intense Flame think time will be shorter.