Thinking about getting a full auto

Lurch37 · April 21, 2008, 02:37 PM

I am seriously considering selling a few items and buying something full auto. I have just started talking to a guy somewhat locally and of course now I am all kinds of confused.

This guy says that I will need to spend around $4,000 minimum and that that amount would get me into what I would call a Mac 9 type of weapon. He went on to say that the next step would be in the $6,000 to $7,000 range and would get me into an UZI type of weapon.

Of course I would really like an MP5 style or M-16 or even a Tommy, but I think they are out of reach for me finacially. A dealer friend told me about a Ruger 550 or something like that but I don't know what kind of money those are. I do want to shoot thing so something in a 9mm would be cheaper to shoot ammo wise.

Are there any sites that cater to full auto that any of you could recommend, a place that sells or has prices for comparing weapons. Right now I am asking for thoughts on the right choice for the right money, places to compare, ideas, opinions, brands, etc., etc..

Thanks!

aroundlsu · April 21, 2008, 03:24 PM

If I were you I would consider waiting until after the Supreme Court ruling in June. There is a chance (however small) that the '86 machine gun ban will be lifted which would cause the Macs and Uzis to drop in price like a rock.

wjkuleck · April 21, 2008, 03:28 PM

With the supply of FA frozen with GOPA '86, prices will only continue to go up as demand increases. What you're facing is "bidding" against other erstwhile FA owners for the same pool of weapons.

Your dealer friend seems to be pretty close to the mark. The Ruger in question is the AC556 and AC556K (short barrel) select fire version of the Mini-14.

Web sites abound. Small Arms Review has a number of FA dealer ads each month. Note that you have to get a dealer involved, as the weapon (if from out of state) must be transferred to him before it can be transferred to you (the $200 tax applies each time), so having a good relationshi with a dealer will smooth the ride.

Start with subguns.com; you'll also see gunboards' MG forum, weaponsboard.com, plus a host of dealers. Just use Google.

Best regards,

Walt

VUPDblue · April 22, 2008, 07:24 AM

look at these sites.... http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi or Subguns NFA board

Lurch37 · April 22, 2008, 11:54 AM

VUPDblue...

I thought you had a sticky somewhere dealing with the introduction into full auto stuff?

VUPDblue · April 22, 2008, 03:38 PM

It's not a sticky, but here is the link... http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=264851

Lurch37 · April 22, 2008, 04:08 PM

Thank you VUPDblue...

Lurch37 · April 22, 2008, 04:14 PM

I realize they are probably out of my reach finacially but, I'm getting a little confused about the HK stuff...as in I read that the trigger group or sear of a particular HK gun is the registered part? And you can swap this part back and forth between different caliber weapons?

VUPDblue · April 22, 2008, 06:12 PM

To an extent, that is true. I don't know too much about HK's but I do know that not all sears/trigger packs are interchangeable with all HK firearms. Someone who knows HK's inside and out would have a better answer to your question.

Chipperman · April 23, 2008, 03:27 PM

HK sears are going for about $10-11k right now. The sear itself can be used in any of the HK roller-lock guns (MP5, MP5k, HK53, HK91, etc). The lower may or may not fit, depending on what size it is. The MP5 and HK53 use the same lower. You just need to change the ejector. The MP5 lower will also fit an HK91, but not the other way around. To fire .308, you'd also need to change the hammer.

If you can afford it, and you want an HK sear, you are better off buying it with the host. You'll spend more money buying them separately.

An MP5 sear gun is running about $16k right now. (You can always find people asking a little more or less)

Chipperman · April 23, 2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

I realize they are probably out of my reach finacially but, I'm getting a little confused about the HK stuff...as in I read that the trigger group or sear of a particular HK gun is the registered part? And you can swap this part back and forth between different caliber weapons?

HK guns can be registeres sears, or registered receivers. In sear guns, the sear can be moved between hosts. You just have to make sure the host gun is legal by itself when you move the sear. IE if you have an MP5 and move the sear to your HK91, the MP5 host will need to be registered as an SBR b/c of the short barrel. That's what is referred to as having a married or divorced sear. Married means that you pay one tax for the sear, but the host is not registered as an SBR. Divorced means that you pay two taxes (one for the host, and one for the sear). This allows you to move the sear without worry. An MP5SD has a third tax for the suppressor. If you buy a gun where the sear is married to the host, you can always divorce it later, but you'll have to pay the $200 trasnfer tax and engrave the host as the "Maker" of the new NFA firearm.

In Registered receiver guns, the reciever is the registered part. The advantage is that any and all parts of the trigger group, barrel, etc can be replaced, but the gun you have is the gun you have. It's more limiting., b/c you cannot really cannot change calibers.

Hkmp5sd · April 23, 2008, 03:55 PM

Quote:

An MP5SD has a third tax for the suppressor.

Mine is registered on two stamps. One for the "machinegun" (sear) and the other for "SBR/Suppressor."

Chipperman · April 23, 2008, 05:12 PM

I thought that an SD required one for the can and one for the short barrel. Do they allow the can to be considered part of the barrel, and therefore not an SBR?

If so, thanks for the correction.

Hkmp5sd · April 23, 2008, 05:54 PM

They still consider it a SBR. They just let them be combined on a single stamp. My Form 4 says "SBR/Suppressor". If it was a detachable suppressor, it could still be on a single stamp if I married the sear to the gun to cover having a SBR upper.

Lurch37 · April 23, 2008, 08:13 PM

Thanks guys for the help I really appreciate it. As much as I would like to have an MP5, that price tag is more than likely out of reach for me. I was hoping to spend about half of that for something of quality.

Chipperman · April 24, 2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

They still consider it a SBR. They just let them be combined on a single stamp.

Interesting. Just another example of wierdness from ATF. I'm pretty sure I've seen SDs for sale that said they were "3 Stamp" guns. Maybe they are inconsistent with that ruling, as with some others.

VUPDblue · April 24, 2008, 10:43 AM

Actually there are only a few MP5SD's that are on one or two stapms. There are at least a couple that are a one stamp gun (machinegun) and a couple more that are 2 stamps (SBR/Suppressor) guns.

The powers that be at BATFE only let a few get through this way. The majority of SD's are 2 stamp guns (MG/Suppressor or SBR/Suppressor).

dakid2 · April 26, 2008, 11:47 PM

Chipperman, what if it is a true H&K factory MP5A3 full auto that was not converted to auto from semi like most out there?

VUPDblue · April 27, 2008, 08:34 AM

I was under the impression that all transferable MP5-type firearms were all conversions on HK94's and the like.

dakid2 · April 27, 2008, 12:10 PM

Nope some got through and this guide is extremely helpful. So that's why I was asking since ours is NOT a conversion.

8th paragraph down
http://www.machinegunprices.com/html/hk_nfa_conv.HTM

Chipperman · April 30, 2008, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Chipperman, what if it is a true H&K factory MP5A3 full auto that was not converted to auto from semi like most out there?

My understanding is that there are a few transferable original factory MP5's out there. I believe they are all Registered Receivers and have push pin lowers.

douglasschuckert · May 2, 2008, 05:54 AM

It is a little know fact and often gotten wrong, that there are no transferable 'factory' MP5's in the registry. All available MP5's that are out there are in fact conversions. H&K only made their MP5's for Military Units, but a few "Dealer Samples" made it into circulation. The 'factory' MP5's that you are referencing are the simi-autos, the 94's and SP-89's that H&K took off their simi line and ran through the MP5 line basically. As they are genuine H&K converted full auto's they did not begin their life as an MP5. (one of my local gun dealers used to be a saleman for H&K.. He could only sell the MP5 to Military Units in the US. He could sell the factory conversions to Police and dealers.

Several high end conversions like those of T. Dyer, John Flemming, Qualified, and Ralf Smith (RDTS) (several others also did conversions.. I just cant remember the names... I think Vector did them as well, but I dont remember for sure) were converted to use push pins and had the receiver itself registered as the gun where-as they also registered the sear and the sear/trigger pack housing as the machine gun as well...

This is how you get "Registered Receiver" (Where the receiver is registered), "Registered Sear" where the "H" style sear of the weapon is registered, and then the "Sear Pack or Registered Pack" (the houseing that holds the trigger group/FCG) is registered.

The 3 pin, swing downs are the most desirable as they are true EXACT copies of the factory MP5 (if you're a purist), then the next is the Sear Pack as they slip in and out of H&K style weapons with very little to no gun smithing required (addition of full auto bolt/carrier which most clones already have), and then the sear where a qualified H&K knowlegable smith is required to install it (to make sure the timing of the SEAR/hammer strike is properly tuned).

If you own a SEAR or a PACK, purcase a clone registered as a 'pistol'. Once you add the sear you can attach a stock and VFG and anything else you want to the weapon. So its now a 1 stamp gun. If you ever take out the sear or pack you have to remove the FVG and the stock...

Chipperman · May 2, 2008, 10:12 AM

Quote:

The 3 pin, swing downs are the most desirable

Three Pin? A G3 has three pins, an MP5 has only two.

dakid2 · May 17, 2008, 08:48 PM

Not true douglasschuckert, look at the link I provided.

douglasschuckert · May 18, 2008, 09:23 PM

Actually it is true. Your link shows not very good research.

I didnt mention the extent of what I know about this becuase I didn't feel the need, but being its pressing on this topic, my local gun dealer down the road from my house was a partner with my Father. He and Pop went around CONUS selling for H&K. There are only a few 'dealer samples' on the market that are 'factory' MP5's and even those began life as SA's. 99% of what you will find on the transferable market are infact conversions either registered as SEAR/SEAR PACK/REG. RECEIVER.

You cant argue with the horses mouth, bud. But this is a trivial argument and you can beleive what you want. I've given you the right information. You do with it as you will.

BTW. The MP5 is a 3 pin swingdown as well (I grew up with one). The trigger packs can switch between platforms. Dad used to switch them between the 53 he had made (I think John Flemming did it... but dont really remember), his G3 (factory), and his factory MP5K-PDW & SD dealer samples. The two pin your thinking of is called "Clipped and Pinned" lower.

For WIW anyway..

April 21, 2008, 02:37 PM	#1
Lurch37 Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Middle of Nebraska Posts: 941	Thinking about getting a full auto I am seriously considering selling a few items and buying something full auto. I have just started talking to a guy somewhat locally and of course now I am all kinds of confused. This guy says that I will need to spend around $4,000 minimum and that that amount would get me into what I would call a Mac 9 type of weapon. He went on to say that the next step would be in the $6,000 to $7,000 range and would get me into an UZI type of weapon. Of course I would really like an MP5 style or M-16 or even a Tommy, but I think they are out of reach for me finacially. A dealer friend told me about a Ruger 550 or something like that but I don't know what kind of money those are. I do want to shoot thing so something in a 9mm would be cheaper to shoot ammo wise. Are there any sites that cater to full auto that any of you could recommend, a place that sells or has prices for comparing weapons. Right now I am asking for thoughts on the right choice for the right money, places to compare, ideas, opinions, brands, etc., etc.. Thanks! __________________ I reject your reality and substitute my own.

April 21, 2008, 03:28 PM	#3
wjkuleck Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2007 Location: Ohio, USA Posts: 1,220	With the supply of FA frozen with GOPA '86, prices will only continue to go up as demand increases. What you're facing is "bidding" against other erstwhile FA owners for the same pool of weapons. Your dealer friend seems to be pretty close to the mark. The Ruger in question is the AC556 and AC556K (short barrel) select fire version of the Mini-14. Web sites abound. Small Arms Review has a number of FA dealer ads each month. Note that you have to get a dealer involved, as the weapon (if from out of state) must be transferred to him before it can be transferred to you (the $200 tax applies each time), so having a good relationshi with a dealer will smooth the ride. Start with subguns.com; you'll also see gunboards' MG forum, weaponsboard.com, plus a host of dealers. Just use Google. Best regards, Walt __________________ Author, NEW! The M1911 Complete Owner's Guide The M14 and M1 Garand Complete Assembly Guides The M1 Garand Complete Assembly Guide The AR-15 Complete Assembly and (New 4th Edition) Owner's Guides Last edited by wjkuleck; April 21, 2008 at 03:28 PM. Reason: Typo

April 22, 2008, 07:24 AM	#4
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	look at these sites.... http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi or Subguns NFA board __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

April 22, 2008, 11:54 AM	#5
Lurch37 Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Middle of Nebraska Posts: 941	VUPDblue... I thought you had a sticky somewhere dealing with the introduction into full auto stuff? __________________ I reject your reality and substitute my own.

April 22, 2008, 03:38 PM	#6
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	It's not a sticky, but here is the link... http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=264851 __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

April 21, 2008, 03:24 PM	#2
aroundlsu Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 156	If I were you I would consider waiting until after the Supreme Court ruling in June. There is a chance (however small) that the '86 machine gun ban will be lifted which would cause the Macs and Uzis to drop in price like a rock.

April 22, 2008, 04:08 PM	#7
Lurch37 Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Middle of Nebraska Posts: 941	Thank you VUPDblue... __________________ I reject your reality and substitute my own.

April 22, 2008, 04:14 PM	#8
Lurch37 Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Middle of Nebraska Posts: 941	I realize they are probably out of my reach finacially but, I'm getting a little confused about the HK stuff...as in I read that the trigger group or sear of a particular HK gun is the registered part? And you can swap this part back and forth between different caliber weapons? __________________ I reject your reality and substitute my own.

April 22, 2008, 06:12 PM	#9
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	To an extent, that is true. I don't know too much about HK's but I do know that not all sears/trigger packs are interchangeable with all HK firearms. Someone who knows HK's inside and out would have a better answer to your question. __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

April 23, 2008, 03:27 PM	#10
Chipperman Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2000 Location: Live Free or Die, Baby! Posts: 1,550	HK sears are going for about $10-11k right now. The sear itself can be used in any of the HK roller-lock guns (MP5, MP5k, HK53, HK91, etc). The lower may or may not fit, depending on what size it is. The MP5 and HK53 use the same lower. You just need to change the ejector. The MP5 lower will also fit an HK91, but not the other way around. To fire .308, you'd also need to change the hammer. If you can afford it, and you want an HK sear, you are better off buying it with the host. You'll spend more money buying them separately. An MP5 sear gun is running about $16k right now. (You can always find people asking a little more or less)

April 23, 2008, 05:12 PM	#13
Chipperman Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2000 Location: Live Free or Die, Baby! Posts: 1,550	I thought that an SD required one for the can and one for the short barrel. Do they allow the can to be considered part of the barrel, and therefore not an SBR? If so, thanks for the correction.

April 23, 2008, 05:54 PM	#14
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	They still consider it a SBR. They just let them be combined on a single stamp. My Form 4 says "SBR/Suppressor". If it was a detachable suppressor, it could still be on a single stamp if I married the sear to the gun to cover having a SBR upper.

April 23, 2008, 08:13 PM	#15
Lurch37 Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Middle of Nebraska Posts: 941	Thanks guys for the help I really appreciate it. As much as I would like to have an MP5, that price tag is more than likely out of reach for me. I was hoping to spend about half of that for something of quality. __________________ I reject your reality and substitute my own.

April 24, 2008, 10:43 AM	#17
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	Actually there are only a few MP5SD's that are on one or two stapms. There are at least a couple that are a one stamp gun (machinegun) and a couple more that are 2 stamps (SBR/Suppressor) guns. The powers that be at BATFE only let a few get through this way. The majority of SD's are 2 stamp guns (MG/Suppressor or SBR/Suppressor). __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

April 26, 2008, 11:47 PM	#18
dakid2 Junior Member Join Date: May 2, 2007 Posts: 13	Chipperman, what if it is a true H&K factory MP5A3 full auto that was not converted to auto from semi like most out there?

April 27, 2008, 08:34 AM	#19
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	I was under the impression that all transferable MP5-type firearms were all conversions on HK94's and the like. __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

April 27, 2008, 12:10 PM	#20
dakid2 Junior Member Join Date: May 2, 2007 Posts: 13	Nope some got through and this guide is extremely helpful. So that's why I was asking since ours is NOT a conversion. 8th paragraph down http://www.machinegunprices.com/html/hk_nfa_conv.HTM

May 2, 2008, 05:54 AM	#22
douglasschuckert Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2007 Location: Pensacola, Florida Posts: 141	Origonal MP5's It is a little know fact and often gotten wrong, that there are no transferable 'factory' MP5's in the registry. All available MP5's that are out there are in fact conversions. H&K only made their MP5's for Military Units, but a few "Dealer Samples" made it into circulation. The 'factory' MP5's that you are referencing are the simi-autos, the 94's and SP-89's that H&K took off their simi line and ran through the MP5 line basically. As they are genuine H&K converted full auto's they did not begin their life as an MP5. (one of my local gun dealers used to be a saleman for H&K.. He could only sell the MP5 to Military Units in the US. He could sell the factory conversions to Police and dealers. Several high end conversions like those of T. Dyer, John Flemming, Qualified, and Ralf Smith (RDTS) (several others also did conversions.. I just cant remember the names... I think Vector did them as well, but I dont remember for sure) were converted to use push pins and had the receiver itself registered as the gun where-as they also registered the sear and the sear/trigger pack housing as the machine gun as well... This is how you get "Registered Receiver" (Where the receiver is registered), "Registered Sear" where the "H" style sear of the weapon is registered, and then the "Sear Pack or Registered Pack" (the houseing that holds the trigger group/FCG) is registered. The 3 pin, swing downs are the most desirable as they are true EXACT copies of the factory MP5 (if you're a purist), then the next is the Sear Pack as they slip in and out of H&K style weapons with very little to no gun smithing required (addition of full auto bolt/carrier which most clones already have), and then the sear where a qualified H&K knowlegable smith is required to install it (to make sure the timing of the SEAR/hammer strike is properly tuned). If you own a SEAR or a PACK, purcase a clone registered as a 'pistol'. Once you add the sear you can attach a stock and VFG and anything else you want to the weapon. So its now a 1 stamp gun. If you ever take out the sear or pack you have to remove the FVG and the stock... __________________ Write your representative and say no to HR 1022!!! (Yet another $%$(&^-up law)! http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=2668 - HR 1022 Assault Weapons Ban & Law Enforcement Protection Act (2007) http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/409898348 - Online Petition against! DO YOUR PART, WRITE YOUR DAMN REP, and DEMAND VETO!

May 17, 2008, 08:48 PM	#24
dakid2 Junior Member Join Date: May 2, 2007 Posts: 13	Not true douglasschuckert, look at the link I provided.

May 18, 2008, 09:23 PM	#25
douglasschuckert Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2007 Location: Pensacola, Florida Posts: 141	Actually it is true. Your link shows not very good research. I didnt mention the extent of what I know about this becuase I didn't feel the need, but being its pressing on this topic, my local gun dealer down the road from my house was a partner with my Father. He and Pop went around CONUS selling for H&K. There are only a few 'dealer samples' on the market that are 'factory' MP5's and even those began life as SA's. 99% of what you will find on the transferable market are infact conversions either registered as SEAR/SEAR PACK/REG. RECEIVER. You cant argue with the horses mouth, bud. But this is a trivial argument and you can beleive what you want. I've given you the right information. You do with it as you will. BTW. The MP5 is a 3 pin swingdown as well (I grew up with one). The trigger packs can switch between platforms. Dad used to switch them between the 53 he had made (I think John Flemming did it... but dont really remember), his G3 (factory), and his factory MP5K-PDW & SD dealer samples. The two pin your thinking of is called "Clipped and Pinned" lower. For WIW anyway.. __________________ Write your representative and say no to HR 1022!!! (Yet another $%$(&^-up law)! http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=2668 - HR 1022 Assault Weapons Ban & Law Enforcement Protection Act (2007) http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/409898348 - Online Petition against! DO YOUR PART, WRITE YOUR DAMN REP, and DEMAND VETO!