Is modern ammo in a WWI-era Luger safe?

[photographix]

A friend of mine has a WWI-era Luger in 9mm that was passed down to him. Mechanically, the pistol seems fine. He had some Winchester 9mm 124 gr. NATO rounds, but was worried that the modern ammo might be too much for this old pistol.

Is he right to be concerned?

[Aguila Blanca]

My recollection is possibly a bit fuzzy but I believe 9mm NATO is loaded a bit hotter than U.S. commercial 9mm ammunition such as Winchester White Box. Please confirm. I think if it were my pistol I'd either not shoot it, or load my own ammo to a starting load (or less).

[photographix]

The box of ammo had "NATO" in the description, which was Winchester in a white box, but not the white box most people think of. I thought I had also heard that NATO rounds were loaded hotter than non-NATO, so thanks for the confirmation.

Despite its age, it's not really a collectible Luger because of some harsh engraving that's been done to it over the years. I think it's unusual because it is nickel plated. He treats it as a family heirloom, but has no problem shooting it once in a while.

Neither he nor I reload, so that option isn't feasible. I'm thinking that subsonic 115 gr with brass casings would be the best ammo for this gun. Thoughts?

[silvermane_1]

Originally Posted by photographix

The box of ammo had "NATO" in the description, which was Winchester in a white box, but not the white box most people think of. I thought I had also heard that NATO rounds were loaded hotter than non-NATO, so thanks for the confirmation.

Despite its age, it's not really a collectible Luger because of some harsh engraving that's been done to it over the years. I think it's unusual because it is nickel plated. He treats it as a family heirloom, but has no problem shooting it once in a while.

Neither he nor I reload, so that option isn't feasible. I'm thinking that subsonic 115 gr with brass casings would be the best ammo for this gun. Thoughts?

My advice would be get into reloading/handloading for WW1 9mm Luger it can be done economically if you buy Lee Precision products, Lee makes a hand held press in kit form for less than $75 IIRC, and the Lee Loader for 9mm(it only sizes the neck though) for less than $50 IIRC, and all that the Lee Reloader requires is a rubber mallet or a block wood would work, remember reloading/handloading ammo doesn't need to be expensive or complicated process there photographix.

[P5 Guy]

I shot FC 98 NATO rounds thru my Navy Luger a 1904 model with no problems other than a couple of fail to feed jams that I attribute to a weak magazine spring.
Still there is no way I would use any Luger as a range toy firing hundreds of rounds weekly. There are too many other interesting guns for range trips.

[Jim Watson]

Original 1903 9mm was about the same as the milder "modern" 124 gr like Blazer Brass.
Some brands are a bit faster, NATO is higher velocity and pressure still.
I'd start at the low end, the Luger does not need "hot" ammo.

[TailGator]

I recall, too, that NATO marked ammo is hotter. I would at least go down to commercial range plinking ammo like the regular white box stuff, if I didn't take up the recommendation to find a way to load some extra-light stuff for it.

[DubC-Hicks]

As Jim said, the 9mm in use back when the Luger was produced was 124gr, and close to the same spec as the current commercial 124gr non-NATO spec stuff.

I had a 1910 Luger, and ran tons of Blazer brass 124gr, AE 124gr, and WWB and Federal 115gr. Never any issues.

[photographix]

I did a quick check on subsonic 9mm, and it seem like most of it has around 147 gr bullets or so. I will tell him that regular 115 gr Blazer Brass and similar should be fine.

Thanks for everyone's help!

[T. O'Heir]

Winchester "NATO" ammo in the ammo cans from Midway is a 124 grain FMJ at 1140 FPS with 358 ft-lbs ME. The White Box stuff, also labeled "NATO" is a 124 FMJ at 1200 FPS with 396 ft-lbs ME. Federal American Eagle brand 124 grain FMJ runs 1150 FPS with 364 ft-lbs ME.
However, there's NATO spec and NATO spec. The bullet weight and velocity varies between 108 grains and 128 grains. The CF used a 115 grain bullet at a nominal muzzle velocity of 1,246.7 FPS. CF ammo is considered to be equal to +P ammo.
In any case, any ammo running at or around 35,000 PSI will be fine in your Luger. Reloading lets you control all of that.

[44 AMP]

Is he right to be concerned?

Yes!!

he has a valid concern.

The original load for the Luger was a 124gr bullet at 1050fps from the 4" (100mm) barrel. A couple years before WWI the load was changed to a 115gr FMJ at 1150fps.

any load hotter than that is hotter than what the Luger was built to run on. Look for commercial ammo with a 115gr bullet at 1150fps. I've used American Eagle (came in a red box last time I got any, but its been a while) in my 1936 gun with no problems.

AVOID EVERYTHING identified as NATO, or +P or +P+ !!! AVOID "suplus" 9mm where the load level cannot be verified. There has been some very hot 9mm stuff made (generally referred to as SMG ammo) which is definitely not good for Lugers, and many other pistols. SOMETIMES this ammo has been repackaged and sold without identifying it as anything other than 9mm "surplus" A friend of mine battered his Hi Power with some (peened the locking lugs).

Deliberately shooting anything that will stress a Luger past its intended range is STUPID. The gun blowing up is a small risk, but something breaking is not. Since your friend's Luger isn't a prized collectable the risk of shooting it damaging its value is low, unlike a matching # gun with a good remaining finish. Breaking a small part on one of those guns could cost half the value of the pistol to a serious collector.

No reason to beat up a Luger, stick with 115 or 124fmj, loaded to 1150 fps or so. Its still out there, though you may have to dig past a lot of newer, hotter loadings to find it.

[Jim Watson]

You have a better chance with 124 than 115.
But a friend's Finn is more reliable with my 145 gr subsonic.

[photographix]

You guys are a fantastic wealth of information!

From info at Target Sports, I see that Blazer Brass FMJ fits your recommendations very well:

115 gr is rated at 1125 fps
124 gr is rated at 1090 fps

[44 AMP]

Those are in the correct velocity range, and should not overstress the Luger.

Whether or not YOUR Luger runs well on them is a different matter.

Lugers have a reputation for being very ...picky... about what they will cycle reliably, even within the proper pressure & velocity range for the design.

Good Luck!

[Jim Watson]

And, as somebody once pointed out, malfunctions of an overloaded Luger LOOK a lot like malfunctions of an underloaded Luger. Until something breaks. Avoid "hot" ammo.

[rodfac]

I've done some work with two 9mm Lugers, and a .30 as well and found that they were not reliable with starting loads. It seemed that the toggle spring just needed a bit more energy to function correctly.

Were it me, and if the gun is in good mechanical condition, I'd try some standard pressure commercial loads with 124 gr bullets. American Eagle worked well in the two I loaded for. One was a 1920 gun, the other from 1938...neither had any difficulty with the AE ammunition.

All three I loaded for showed excellent accuracy once you got used to their triggers and figured out the barley corn front sight. Offhand it was difficult to keep the wobble area reasonable beyond 15 yds, and they sure aren't muzzle heavy...but from a rest and with good ammunition, they were some of the most accurate pistols I'd had the pleasure to try. I was in my 30-40's at the time and had the eyes to keep a good sight picture...now I'd be struggling with the sights .

Best regards, and good luck. Rod

[blchandl2]

I run 115gr factory ammo and my own reloads in both of mine with no issues. My reloads are 4.0 gr. Titegroup with a 115 gr Xtreme Bullets projectile.

[SIGSHR]

Wouldn't replacing 100 year old springs help ?

[RickB]

There are rumors (old wives tales) that Lugers need "hot" ammo to run reliably.
WWI-vintage Lugers are made from softer metal than later guns, so you won't want to shoot hot anything.

My post-war (WWI) .30 runs great with loads pushing 85gr bullets at 1150fps, which is distinctly weaker than any 9mm load.
The action spring needs to be matched to the gun and the load; there used to be five or six different action springs, and I think Wolff now makes two.

My gun has failed in the breechblock allowing the striker to push through the rear of the block. You can replace the breechblock with a reproduction, or drill it for a pin to take the place of the damaged area.

[mr bolo]

I would NOT recommend using any 124gr 9mm NATO ammunition in a WW1 era Luger

9mm NATO should only be used in modern firearms rated to use +P rated ammo

buy some 9mm range / target ammo at WALMART for testing, like Federal 9mm, 115gr brass cased or Winchester WWB 9mm 115 gr in the 100 rd value packs.

[44 AMP]

here's a simple rule that, as far as I can see, won't hurt anything...

Don't use NATO ammo in anything made before NATO existed!