New 5" Walther PDP is

[wild cat mccane]

Just stumbled on this while still looking at the PDP. It's not sold yet, but listed at the compact 15rnd and 18rnd grips.

https://waltherarms.com/pdp-full-size-5/

[wild cat mccane]

Lies. Grabagun has the compact with 5"

[Siggy-06]

Just bought a Gen 5 34 mos, sorry Walther, down to the bottom of the “to buy” list. :P

[TunnelRat]

What were the “lies”?


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[wild cat mccane]

Lies was me saying it wasn't out yet.

So 4", 4.5" and 5" with all combos of the compact/full grip.

[TunnelRat]

I think I actually saw the 5” in a compact frame at a local store as well. The stores that had PDPs a while back also seem to have received their second batch, at least locally to me. Oddly some of those stores got a second batch while others haven’t had any. Must be a function of dealer volume I guess.


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[JDBerg]

I’ll start a list of PDP variants we probably won’t see anytime soon with the PDP45 SC (subcompact).

[dyl]

Slightly off topic, but still about the PDP.

I thought I read that the PDP has a "better" trigger than the PPQ. But wasn't everyone saying a few years ago that the PPQ has the best striker fired trigger out the box compared to the big names at the time? Isn't that really what the PPQ is known for?

[Siggy-06]

Well I’d say my P99 AS trigger was better than the PPQ’s, still haven’t found a stock factory trigger to match it.

[wild cat mccane]

That's a confusing statement? PDP is brand new. The P99 has a lighter SA trigger than the PPQ.

The P99/PPQ have the best stock triggers...period. Hammer or striker. Recall, most hammer fired have "camming" where the trigger goes back even more when fully cocked in single action, CZ being a great example of this problem.
If the NEW PDP takes some scratch off the trigger bar, then the PDP will have the best trigger available.

Just stinks what they did to the slide.

[TunnelRat]

I don’t mind what they did to the slide. As always YMMV.


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[Siggy-06]

I think Walther could have came up or partnered with a rmr maker to produce a slimmer rmr to fit the PPQ’s slide profile. I understand they need the width to match a lot of rmrs on the market, but a lot of people like the slide profile of the PPQ m1/m2. I mean, Springfield came out with the Hex Wasp and it fits the Hellcat...

[wild cat mccane]

Exactly. Totally lazy on Walther's part.

Walther has used their "triangle" shaped slide as a helping focus the eye on the sights--which I have found true.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Siggy-06

I think Walther could have came up or partnered with a rmr maker to produce a slimmer rmr to fit the PPQ’s slide profile. I understand they need the width to match a lot of rmrs on the market, but a lot of people like the slide profile of the PPQ m1/m2. I mean, Springfield came out with the Hex Wasp and it fits the Hellcat...

Walther does have an optics mounting system for the Q4 and Q5, but the plates stick out from the slide notably because most optics are wider than that in order to have a usable viewing window. It’s not just the Trijicon RMR, Holosun uses the same footprint. The Deltapoint Pro footprint is just as wide and used by Leupold and SIG. Vortex and their footprint is also as wide (to my knowledge). That’s most of the optics market right there. You also ended up without a rear sight on the Q4 and Q5, unless you went and had them directly milled for a specific optic or purchased an aftermarket plate. My guess is Walther felt that the plate system for the Q4 and Q5 wasn’t popular enough to maintain for the PDP.

Springfield used an already existing footprint both when they created the Hellcat and when they made an optic for it, for good reason. I’m not sure how much of an appetite there is on the market for yet another footprint that would require everyone to buy new optics as what they have currently wouldn’t work. Then people would also have to wait for that new optic to become readily available. Generally the goal with a modular optic system is something that can work with a number of options based on the consumer’s likes. What you’re describing seems like the exact opposite of that. To me it would have made the PDP red dot optic system DOA.

It’s also worth noting that the red dots for the Hellcat, P365, etc are smaller in footprint and overall size because they were designed to fit on such micro pistols or even single stacks. The trade off to that is those optics have a smaller viewing window. On a small, thin pistol it makes sense to make that trade. The PPQ is 5.3” tall and 1.3” wide. It’s not a micro pistol. Only being able to use those very small optics on a compact or full-size pistol wouldn’t make a lot of sense, imo.

You don’t need an angled slide to focus on the iron sights if you’re mounting a red dot. For that matter I’ve never heard anyone say they have a hard time focusing on the sights with a squared off slide. The angled slide may be a help there, but is that worth compromising the red dot mounting system just to keep that? To me, no. One criticism that I think is fair is Walther could have kept some angle to the front of the slide similar to the P10 or P320, but I’m not sure that’s enough for the people that liked the fully tapered slide.

By Walther’s own admission in their marketing for this pistol they geared it primarily for red dot use. That may or may not have been a good idea, but that was the end goal. For some people the PDP simply may not be a product geared towards them. If you don’t care about a red dot mounting system, to me just keep or buy a PPQ if you don’t have one already.

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[wild cat mccane]

I'm not arguing like looking for a fight, but I bet there aren't that many red dot users out there. Like not as a percentage to handguns, carriers, guns at a range...I mean by any measure.

It amazes me that red dot cuts got so much attention by gun makers. I think someone would say, "yeah, that shows you are wrong about the popularity of red dots." But, I have a theory. It's because there aren't that many new features to add to guns now, red dot cuts weren't available now, now all the gun makers are in a race to catch each other on something that requires almost no design. Boom. Now even a Ruger LC9 with a red dot and more rounds (Max-9) gets released and is currently selling for $650 when the LC9 was approaching $200 towards the end of it's product life. $650 for a Ruger LC9 with a few more rounds and a red dot? Have we lost our minds on value?

We're kinda being played the fools by gun makers.

[JDBerg]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane:

I'm not arguing like looking for a fight, but I bet there aren't that many red dot users out there. Like not as a percentage to handguns, carriers, guns at a range...I mean by any measure.

Red dot sights on handguns are not going away, they are only increasing in popularity and in mainstream use. Law enforcement agencies are now allowing their officers to train with red dot sights on their duty handguns and to use these optics on their duty weapons. Some agencies are even issuing the handgun optics. These optics may soon be standard equipment on police pistols.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

I'm not arguing like looking for a fight, but I bet there aren't that many red dot users out there. Like not as a percentage to handguns, carriers, guns at a range...I mean by any measure.

It amazes me that red dot cuts got so much attention by gun makers. I think someone would say, "yeah, that shows you are wrong about the popularity of red dots." But, I have a theory. It's because there aren't that many new features to add to guns now, red dot cuts weren't available now, now all the gun makers are in a race to catch each other on something that requires almost no design. Boom. Now even a Ruger LC9 with a red dot and more rounds (Max-9) gets released and is currently selling for $650 when the LC9 was approaching $200 towards the end of it's product life. $650 for a Ruger LC9 with a few more rounds and a red dot? Have we lost our minds on value?

We're kinda being played the fools by gun makers.

I can’t speak to where you live and where you shoot. Around me and at the ranges I’m a member of I am seeing more and more red dots. I would say it’s a measurable percentage though I fully agree it’s nowhere near the majority. That would take substantial time to see that transition. I know the red dot courses at SIG Sauer Academy keep selling out and they keep adding more to the schedule as a result.

As for prices, I think you picked a particular example to which I can’t personally speak. The PDP I just bought was $599. The PPQs I bought previously were generally around $550 either locally or if bought online and by the time I added in shipping and transfer fees. $50 more for optics capability doesn’t seem excessive to me, especially as I plan to use it. An MOS Glock locally is $620 next to the standard $550. $70 more. Again in terms of total added cost and percentage added I don’t find that unreasonable if you plan to use a red dot. Direct milling and the cost of shipping the pistol to the shop to do that work is noticeably more expensive. I don’t personally feel foolish. All of this pales in comparison to ammunition costs currently for any amount of substantial shooting, but hopefully that will be more of a medium term issue than a long term change.

I think defaulting to an optics ready model rather than having two product lines is a calculated risk, as I suggested above. There will be people that don’t see the use in it. To those people I again suggest grabbing a PPQ while they’re still available. Given the parts commonality that is being maintained those people should at least be able to keep their pistols running for many years to come.


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[wild cat mccane]

Yeah. But see...the PQP was $400 with rebate 2 years ago. The rebate was for months and months. It was when everyone's guns were crashing in demand.

Baring all the high prices now, the MSRP on the PDP went up. Walther's MSRP is 649. MSRP on the PPQ is 549.

You are actually paying for the cut on the PDP. Yes, factory is always better. But now everyone is wanting the cut, and all PPQ options are discontinued without the cut.

Pretty lame. But we the consumer just took it.

Walther won't be coming down in price given the higher MSRP. And when they do, Walther will just update. with something like a slimmer slide.

It's total nonsense.

[TunnelRat]

Yeah but you're comparing a special pricing event during a period of flat sales to standard pricing. I don't consider that a fair comparison.

I never denied I was paying for the cut. I fully acknowledged that. The price is reasonable as far as I am concerned and as I outlined. Even $100 is still notably less than having a slide shipped and milled.

I the consumer wanted this and I am happy to take it. That you didn't want it is unfortunate for you, but you keep acting like no one wanted this. Some people did. Around me locally the PDP continues to sell out within days of coming in stock, and at the stores I frequent Walthers often sit for a while.

I can't answer for Walther's business decisions. If you're dissatisfied call or email them and let them know. I feel like you keep belaboring this point across multiple threads now when it's not going to change anything telling the same people here. You had a tapered slide PPQ. You sold it in a move that as I said before I think was overly hasty. That was on you. No one forced you into a position where you have to buy a PDP.

[sevt_chevelle]

After owning a CZ Shadow 2 optics ready am having a hard time wanting anything but red dot equipped pistols.

[wild cat mccane]

But with a red dot, there isn’t a point of owning a huge gun like the Shadow

[sevt_chevelle]

Yep because my Shadow and shield are exactly the same.

[JDBerg]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane:

But with a red dot, there isn’t a point of owning a huge gun like the Shadow

Any USPSA Carry Optics division competitors care to weigh in here?

[wild cat mccane]

Well hold on. Clearly I know the advantages. Just meaning, the longer barrel is for aided aiming. The flip/rise of a 4" barrel and 5" is pretty subjective for having any difference. A G26 should hit the same as a G34, first shot, with a red dot? Would the average non collector benefit from buying both a Glock 19 and 17 AND adding red dots to both? No. Very common for the G19 to be said to be as accurate as the 17 for many. Point being....

The longer barrel flip can be overcome by weight (X5 adjustable weights, picatinny weights, tungsten guide rod as an example). Say you send your CZ PCR to Primary Machine for a red dot milling. A red dot pcr should hit the same place as a Shadow. (agreed, agreed, you need to spend about 1k in Cajun Works stuff to make the PCR good, but that's a CZ problem).

Just wild thinking, but the red dot is just such an obvious afterthought to it all with massive bulk. I have no idea what it could be, but one could imagine a future where slides have this integrated set up. I guess until then, the perceived best gun in a class is always going to just be better with a red dot.

So when Walther adds bulk to their flagship 4" "Compact" and have the same bulk on the 4.5" and 5", just to get a red dot on it? Blah. Blah on you Walther

PS. Walther P99 just went up in price this past week. So The PDP was an intro Walther charging more.

[sevt_chevelle]

Just curious but where do you get this 1k number in parts from CGW as you've thrown it out in other posts as well?

I got 3 PCRs, there's not 1k worth of parts between them and two of them have the top of line pro package.
DA is roughly 6.5
SA is 3.6. One had SA of 1.2 had to call CGW to get some different springs.

One starts to run a shadow 2 vs a pcr, it's not even close red dot or not.

You are right, a red dot equipped pistol will be best in class, the advantages completely outweigh the bulk.