Minimum cartridge trend?

[Gunplummer]

My smoothe bore W/scope will make one ragged hole at 75 yards. That is good enough for deer. I have not bought slugs lately, but the Federal slugs used to be really cheap. I have a beat up 12 gage from the 30's. The slug gun will be around long after a lot of these "Novelty" round rifles are gone.

[jimbob86]

I have not yet read the entire thread- need to get to work soon .... but I gotta say a couple of things.......

Putting the bullet into the boiler room is key for killing deer with any cartridge.

It's when the boiler room is on the other end of the deer that the extra horsepower of the .30-06 / .308 class and up comes in handy.

EWWWWWW! Poop and soon to be poop slathered all over the inside of the carcass is just GROSS! Someone that would do this on purpose to meat he's going to eat is ....... just ....... just ewwwww.......

I may catch some grief for this, but I don't understand the big deal behind ruining a shoulder on a deer. I hardly find them worth messing with to start with.

Having seen the "deer" back east (MD and VA, though I doubt the NC strains would be a lot different) ..... I could understand the sentiment, even if I don't agree with it .......

Honestly, I think quite a lot of the reason for the gravitation to lighter calibers is directly related to the general physical fitness of the average hunter in the target market of gun manufacturers: Say what you want, but the average hunter today is not as toned as his predecessor a generation ago. People are more sedentary. I first noted this when the trend was toward "ultralight" rifles...... Grandpa's 10+ pound 30-06 was handy in his hands because he worked with his hands all his life, and spent a lot of that life with his 10+ pound rifle in those hands. Today's hunter wanted a 6 pound rifle so he was not so fatigued just carrying it ...... lighter guns kick more than heavier guns if all else is equal ...... thus we got the notion that the 30-06 was delivering punishing recoil ...........

The market, as always, found ways to offer what the average customer desired ...... thus we have 6 pound pop-guns launching controlled expansion wonderbullets at speeds only dreamed of by handloaders of a generation ago ......

Me, I subscribe to the idea that we should work for stronger shoulders rather than wish for lighter burdens ....... YMMV.

[gunrunner1]

I think strong shoulders and light loads make for a much easier day.

[Hawg]

Jimbob, you might be onto something. I shot my first 12 gauge at the age of 11 and my first 30-06 at 12 and I didn't know what a recoil pad was til a few years later. I still disdain them for all but the really heavy calibers. Just a little while ago I saw a post where somebody was talking about the recoil of a 30-30 and to me a 30-30 has no recoil to speak of.

[PACraftsman]

My deer and bear caliber of choice is a .308, but when I was younger I did hunt deer with my .222. And, yes I did pass up some shots over a hundred yards because I was worried about getting a kill shot. I only shot them under a hundred yards.

If the PA Game Commission approves semi's for hunting I plan on building an AR-10 in .308. It's the only reason I'll invest in an AR at this time.

My cousins have been avid .243 shooters for years. And, the kill more deer than anyone else I know. Plenty of power, even at longer distances.

Overall, like many posts said. It is all about shot placement. Making good choices, and then a good shot what we need to do.

[FrankenMauser]

Honestly, I think quite a lot of the reason for the gravitation to lighter calibers is directly related to the general physical fitness of the average hunter in the target market of gun manufacturers: Say what you want, but the average hunter today is not as toned as his predecessor a generation ago. People are more sedentary. I first noted this when the trend was toward "ultralight" rifles...... Grandpa's 10+ pound 30-06 was handy in his hands because he worked with his hands all his life, and spent a lot of that life with his 10+ pound rifle in those hands. Today's hunter wanted a 6 pound rifle so he was not so fatigued just carrying it ...... lighter guns kick more than heavier guns if all else is equal ...... thus we got the notion that the 30-06 was delivering punishing recoil ...........

That's a bunch of pretty broad stereotypes.
While I agree that society as a whole is weaker and less active than previous generations...

In nearly every instance that I know, I can tell you that 'Grandpa' carried his sporterized, 10-lb .30-06 because that's what he could afford.
Had 'Grandpa' had a little more disposable income, modern materials, and a choice between the 10-lb '06 and a 5.5-lb '06, he surely would have grabbed the light weight. (I've had this very discussion with one of my own grandfathers, who did gravitate toward lighter and lighter rifles as he could afford the upgrades.)

There are also other issues that can come into play.
I regularly hunt with a person that is far more active, far stronger, and in far better condition than myself. But he took a ride down a mountainside in a scraper, after being knocked out by a flying boulder, while rebuilding a road about 15 years ago. His neck and back took most of the damage.
If he carries a rifle that weighs much more than about 8 lbs, through the mountains all day, he will be nearly bedridden for days.
But, if he carries something under 7 lbs and takes it easy, he's fine.

Do you label him a 'sissy' because he has un-correctable back problems?

[dahermit]

My "minimum cartridge trend" came about from shooting many deer in the field. I found that no matter what cartridge I used, it did the job if I shot them in the heart/lung area. And, considering I was primarily after the meat and not the "sport", I learned by butchering them that a shot through the ribs ruined less meat than neck (which I boned out for roasts), or the shoulders (which at one time I blew both of the shoulders out with a .303 British), which contain a lot of meat. I do not try to shoot through deer at angles. If a deer does not present a full-on sideways presentation I wait or pass up the shot...seems that many "sportsmen", do not do so though. I have always wondered if, if a person was given a prime steer for the meat with the stipulation that they had to shoot it from 100 yards, would take a "quartering shot". I wonder how shooting a deer is any different. Or, would they opt for a larger more powerful cartridge "just in case the first shot was not ideal"? Nor am I concerned about an exit hole...I never lost one inasmuch as a deer so shot goes not go beyond my ability to track them. I use modest cartridges, because that is all that is required.

[lefteye]

That's a bunch of pretty broad stereotypes.

I agree. I'm 70 and haven't hunted in the last four years, but I hunted every year from 1974 through 2012. I hunted with a bow, a rifle, and a shotgun (including a scoped, rifled barrel shotgun for deer.) I hunted in six states, competed in triathlons, biathlons, and distance running up to 20K. I was always up to the task.

[HiBC]

I don't think the OP or anyone else implied there is anything wrong with a 30-06 class cartridge for deer hunting.
IMO,if you show up to hunt with any WW1,WW2 battle rifle cartridge or equivalent,you showed up with a "right and proper" big game cartridge.

6.5x55.7x57,303 Brit,30-40,308.30-06,8mm,ETC,or the civilian cartridges that are similar,and everything necked up,down,or Ackleyed.
Same with all the lever action deer cartridges.
By golly,if you are a "one rifle" guy,and you show up anywhere to hunt about anything with a .375 H+H,I get it! You are not wrong!!

I don't think there is any need,whatsoever,for anyone to defend the use of their 30-06.(or whatever).Its good.
For as long asI've been able to read a gun magazine ,I have read "Venerable 30-06..." articles.
I wish everyone a Garand,a Springfield,and a pre-64 M70 Win in 30-06 or 270!!

I,myself,have never used a 223 for deer or antelope.Iprobably never will.

If you do,so long as you get clean kills,good for you!! None of my business.

I do use a 257 AI. On deer class class animals,hands down,I prefer it over my assortment of other choices most of the time.
A .250 Savage works fine.So does a 243.

Folks are doing fine deer hunting with an SKS.

If a 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Scoenauer isOK to hunt with,why not a 6.5 Grendel?

If you hunt deer or hogs with your Glock 20 in 10 mm,and you get clean kills,Great!!

If your deer rifle is av30-06,Perfect!!

And I bet,for 98% of us,if we try a light cartridge and it fails us(or we fail it)next time we will show up with a bigger gun.

So,what is the problem?

[jimbob86]

I think strong shoulders and light loads make for a much easier day.

..... and I think the continual reach for the easy button has given us such things like replaceable blade hunting knives, ATV's on trailers behind every "hunting rig", and high fence whitetail farms where anyone with several thousand dollars can show up, be driven out to stand, and shoot a "trophy" that comes in under the same feeder every day, and that's all the work that the "hunter" puts into it ...... While not everyone uses the easy button all the time, in general, over time, it leaves the average hunter less capable, both physically and skill wise, than his predecessors. With regard to this topic, "minimum cartridge trend", are we going to eventually end up where we, collectively, are a hunting version of the reporter that whined about shooting an AR-15......

That's a bunch of pretty broad stereotypes.
While I agree that society as a whole is weaker and less active than previous generations...

Do you label him a 'sissy' because he has un-correctable back problems?

I was speaking generally, FM. And apparently you agree with my initial assessment on society ........ and no, I don't label your friend as a "sissy" ..... as I don't label able bodied people that can't manage a 30-06 or some similar gun a sissy. I just note that they are less capable than those who can. It is one thing to disrespect a person for his inability and quite another to encourage ability in general, to laud the capable..... this lack of distinction between the two is the root of all this PC everyone gets a trophy BS .....

Now if an individual needs, due to age (very young or very old) or infirmity of some sort, a lighter weapon, then great...... my own daughter used my AR this year, because that's the only gun we have she has the upper body strength at 12 years old to hold up and shoot offhand. It worked well for her last year..... this year, she did not shoot so well..... we have a lot to work on.

In nearly every instance that I know, I can tell you that 'Grandpa' carried his sporterized, 10-lb .30-06 because that's what he could afford.
Had 'Grandpa' had a little more disposable income, modern materials, and a choice between the 10-lb '06 and a 5.5-lb '06, he surely would have grabbed the light weight. (I've had this very discussion with one of my own grandfathers, who did gravitate toward lighter and lighter rifles as he could afford the upgrades.)

Here's an instance you maybe did not know of..... In the mid 1950's, after an argument with Grandma about whether they could afford a rifle, my own Granpa quit smoking cold turkey, saved his "pocket money"(cigarette) money for over a year and cut a deal with the local hardware store to buy a Remington 721 in .270WIN at cost .... but he had to leave the gun in the store window for 6 months ..... it weighed in at around 8 lbs ...... he hunted with it for 30 years, until his eyes started to age ..... my uncle borrowed it, alledgedly to work up a handload for him ......instead, he took it to a gunsmith, had it reblued, stock refinished, a recoil pad and a 3x9x32 put on it, bringing it's loaded weight to just over 10 pounds ...... and Granpa hunted with it until right before he died. He had enough money to buy any rifle he might have wanted by then, but he had, as Col. Cooper noted, "the best rifle", because "The best rifle is the one you have- endeavor to shoot up to it!" He spent his money on ammunition and his time afield, instead of chasing whatever mechanical rabbit the gun rags were running.

I still hunt with that rifle. There are 3 other 721's (2 in .270 and one in -06) in our deer camp ..... not because some marketing campaign says that they work, but because everyone there knows they do..... and they don't cost what a new bargain basement "entry level combo" rifle does. Are there better guns? Probably. Better, more efficient chamberings? Maybe..... but it's what we have, and we know it works, if we can do our part well enough. That's the hard part...... the shooter is nearly always the greatest variable.

[GeauxTide]

1st five shots at 75 yards with 250 Hornady's at 2200fps with the factory trigger.

[old roper]

My Dad was born 1911 and his older brother was in WW!. Growing up I remember more used 30-06. Last year some local's hunting deer used 338 Lapua and they were mid 30's. My nephew in Calif build 33RUM for hunting elk out of state and he's in his 40's. When he got serous about hunting elk I gave him 300mag plus I gave him 270WSM,300WSM,270 and his first hunting rifle was 30-06 that I gave him.

One of the guy's working archery shop part time is hunting with 7Wby mag he got from his Dad.

I know more hunters using long action rifle than short action plus their in mid 30's to late 40's.

At 74 I'm not ready to toss in the towel shooting mag or 30-06 for hunting. And one thing about having money is you can buy or build some like 6ppc to shoot target with or 243AI maybe 22BR or 222mag

[JohnKSa]

Probably part of it is the ready exchange of information. People have instant access to a lot of experience these days and they can easily see what works for various people across a broad range of calibers. Frankly, if you go back 30 years, people had the experience of a few friends and maybe a few gunwriters to draw on. If all your buddies used a .30-06 and your favorite gunwriter expounded about its virtues then you probably used a .30-06.

When I was growing up. .30-06 was practically synonymous with deer rifle. Not because of its superior ballistics, but for the same reason people talked about so & so's ".38" when they really meant "pistol".

[gunrunner1]

In the 20 years I was on active duty, I never heard any of the Marines I served with complain that their gear was too light. I lift three days a week and if I wanted to, I could carry around a heavy large caliber rifle, but why should I when I have rifles in a smaller caliber that don't weigh very much and are just as capable of killing whatever game I'm after.

[globemaster3]

Honestly, I think quite a lot of the reason for the gravitation to lighter calibers is directly related to the general physical fitness of the average hunter in the target market of gun manufacturers

Although I agree with your assessment of fitness on general population America, I completely disagree with your connecting that to a gravitation to light calibers.

Some of this is being driven by the popularity of the AR. That is why you see cartridges like 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, 25-45 Sharps, .30 RAR, .277 Wolverine, etc being talked about so much.

However, I don't think this is completely why. Over the last 20 years, we've seen a shift to the magnum cartridges... people coming down with the "magnumitis fever". Look at all the new magnum cartridges out there we've seen come (and some go): WSM, WSSM, RUM, SAUM, not to mention the Lazzeroni cartridges and now the new Noslers (although not magnums by name, more like magnum by size).

Before the flamethrowers come out, I am by no means bashing anyone for using magnums. I understand that in some parts of this great nation, the terrain is open and shots under 200 yards is flat out not realistic. Also, there are some game animals that lend themselves to being better suited for the magnum cartridges.

However, as John mentioned below:

People have instant access to a lot of experience these days and they can easily see what works for various people across a broad range of calibers.

What we have lost in physical conditioning we gained in being better informed. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, with most shots being under 200 yards, and a large portion of that under 100 yards, when looking at deer/hog sized game, a magnum, or even full power cartridge, although able to do the job, is not required! In a perfect world I like to shoot my deer guns... a lot! I can do far more of that, and enjoy it far more, shooting an AR-15 in 6.8 SPC at the range than I will shooting a .300 Win Mag!

I think this is why we are seeing a pendulum shift back the other way. People are realizing that although full power cartridges and magnums have their place, they are not the only answer!

[rickyrick]

I'm fortunate enough to have shot lots and lots of pigs; this had the anecdotal secondary benefit of being caliber tests. Most of my hunting has been less than 100. Originally, I started with 30 caliber, bulk being 308 & 303brit. I found these to be excessive. Exit wounds were the norm but I found that unacceptable in the conditions in which I was hunting. I hunted working ranches in low light. Every shot was carefully taken, but still didn't want any accidents involving unseen livestock and exiting bullets.
I tried .223 out, boy was I surprised with the results, I stuck to it and never looked back. Why not? Light cheap and effective in the right distances. Only lost one pig, out of 100s, and the next day, I found it 10yds from where I shot it. The night before I started looking too far away to begin with.

Now I'm not saying it's the best caliber for all purposes, it works in the right situations.

[Gunplummer]

Will one of the heavy caliber experts please explain to me why there were so many wounded deer running around and dead lost deer laying around in the brush 30 -40 years ago?

[jimbob86]

However, I don't think this is completely why. Over the last 20 years, we've seen a shift to the magnum cartridges... people coming down with the "magnumitis fever". Look at all the new magnum cartridges out there we've seen come (and some go): WSM, WSSM, RUM, SAUM, not to mention the Lazzeroni cartridges and now the new Noslers (although not magnums by name, more like magnum by size).

I think The Magnumitis that began 20 years ago has pretty much run it's course ...... I don't see any 7mmSTW's (Shoots To Wisconsin) around anymore ...... in fact, have not seen anyone toting a 7mmMag afield in the last 5 years ..... have seen various ARs .... unsure of the caliber ...... I see fewer long action guns ..... .308 and 7-08 and .243 getting more and more common.....

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by Gunplummer

Will one of the heavy caliber experts please explain to me why there were so many wounded deer running around and dead lost deer laying around in the brush 30 -40 years ago?

Bad shooting and buck fever. Same as today.

[lefteye]

I have never seen any data on wounded or dead lost deer. Although rifles and cartridges have certainly improved over the years, I would suspect that rifled shotgun barrels, sabot slugs, and optics have significantly improved the accuracy of shotgun deer hunting and, therefore, have reduced the number of wounded or lost dead deer. However, improved accuracy may have led to longer, riskier shots at moving deer. It would be interesting to see valid data on wounded and dead lost deer.

[Gunplummer]

PA has a late season for bow, after rifle season. Good time to scout around for next year or just get out of the house. Back when PA was still overrun with deer, I would find dead deer all the time. I did logging/landclearing for a little while and we found a LOT of dead deer in the brush after deer season in the shotgun areas. I used to check my fox traps with binoculars, and I saw a lot of shot up deer limping around in the shotgun areas. I have killed many a deer that was already hit during rifle season. Some healed over from years before, some not. I was out today and saw a spike. At first I thought it was a doe, but the body looked too blocky to be a doe. I sat down and watched it feed toward me and it took quite a while before I was actually sure it was a spike, even with a scope. There was a drive going on in the swamp below the mountain I was on. Had that spike been caught in a drive, it would have been shot for a doe for sure (Illegal). Some guys would just let it lay.
It would be tough to do a study on deer loss with any accuracy.

[ZeroJunk]

I have found five dead on my property in the last year. One nice buck, but I couldn't tell if he had been shot in the hind quarters perhaps since they were already eaten by coyotes or buzzards.

The other four had no signs of injury although it is possible one of them was hit by a car since he was fairly close to the road. I think the rest were likely hemorrhagic fever.

Personally, I don't have any strong conviction that a man that can't shoot a 30/06 will suddenly become a marksman with a 223 or 243 .

[Gunplummer]

Not my point. It would seem that some people think there will be an avalanche of wounded deer now that people are using lighter rounds for deer hunting. I heard the same thing from the compound bow hunters when PA wanted to make the crossbow legal. In reality, it WAS the compound bow hunters losing all the deer. Nothing is going to change. Some people will take stupid shots and some will not. Some will be lost no matter how careful people are.

[gunrunner1]

I have noticed that person's sensitivity to recoil a lot of times has nothing to do with how physically big a person is. A friend of mine that I worked with is a pretty big guy and fairly strong. He had a revolver chambered in .480 Ruger and sold it because he couldn't handle the recoil. I have another friend who has a .480 Ruger and he has absolutely no problem with the recoil, and he isn't much bigger than me. I have a cousin that thinks the .30-06 kicks like a mule, and therefore doesn't shoot one very well, but he is deadly accurate with his Remington 700 in .223 Remington.

[Hawg]

I have noticed that person's sensitivity to recoil a lot of times has nothing to do with how physically big a person is.

You're right about that. My first wife weighs 110 lbs and her favorite handgun is a hot loaded Ruger Super Blackhawk. She will shoot it til the ammo runs out. My stepdaughter has been pulling both triggers at the same time on my SXS 12 gauge with no recoil pad shooting clays since she was 13 or 14 but my 20 gauge SXS kicks too hard.