380 vs 9mm CCW Choice & Ammo?

[Tompayne]

I am familiar with revolvers and have shot a number of makes and calibers, but much of this was 20 plus years ago. I have been doing a lot of research on 380 vs 9mm plus ammo choices for concealed carry because automatics seem to be the way to go. I want something discrete, not too heavy, but with enough ammo to stop an immediate threat or at least buy time to disengage. The Ruger LC380 and Bersa Thunder concealed carry & plus models seem of interest in the smaller calibers. Any recommendations of either of these or a comparable 9mm counterpart? After having watched and read scores of ballistic tests I'm still searching for a reliable round that won't over-penetrate yet consistently expand.

[MandolinMan]

Welcome to the forum!

I wouldn't be to quick to dismiss revolvers, especially if you already have some experience with them. While they are lower in capacity, the difference isn't too significant if your looking at subcompact single stacks like you've mentioned. Revolvers are simple, reliable, and really a great place to start. Ruger LCR and S&W airweights might deserve a look.

The best course of action is probably to find a local range that rents guns. I think you'll be suprised at what you end up liking or disliking after a little trigger time.

[RAfiringline]

>The Ruger LC380 and Bersa Thunder concealed carry & plus models seem of interest in the smaller calibers. Any recommendations of either of these or a comparable 9mm counterpart? After having watched and read scores of ballistic tests I'm still searching for a reliable round that won't over-penetrate yet consistently expand.<

A couple years ago, I was in the same situation as you are. The Bersa Thunder 380 didn't work out for me in terms of reliability, and neither did another brand small size carry gun in 9mm.
I wound up preferring 9mm (124g Gold Dots for SD), and a Glock 19 and a CZp01 as SD guns. Both are medium (not small) size/weight guns, are reliable, and hold enough rounds to compensate for the problems that real life experiences indicate in defensive shooter accuracy and handgun calibers' stopping power.

[subhuman]

9mm; S&W Shield, HST,Gold Dot, XTP, all 124 gr.

380 LCP, 90 gr. XTP

[Oysterboy]

9mm and Hornady 135g FTX standard pressure. Easy to shoot and hits hard.

[Lohman446]

To me there is no real advantage to the size of the firearm between .380 and 9MM - you have to go down to the .32 before size differences become noticeable (and then down to .25 from there). Because of this I tend towards 9MM once I get to that size firearm though I really don't see an issue with .380.

[pblanc]

I personally would not use .380 Auto for self-defense unless you just absolutely had to have a very small subcompact pistol. The problem with .380 Auto ammo has been that is tends to expand or penetrate, but usually not both. You can see this well-demonstrated in the LuckyGunner ballistic tests:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts

But there are some loads that are more reliable than others. ShootingTheBull410 has done a ton of ballistics tests on youtube and shot many different .380 Auto loads to find what he thought was the best. You can watch his summary video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts

His conclusion was that for .380 Auto the best performing projectile was the XTP

His overall favorite was Precision One.

If you can go with a pistol the size of the M&P Shield, I think you would be much better served with 9mm Luger.

[FITASC]

I want something discrete, not too heavy,

Define discrete and not too heavy. Are you looking for something small to carry in a pocket or while wearing gym-type shorts that don't have a belt? Or are you going for IWB using a good belt? For the former, the Ruger LCP - for the latter, anything along the size of a Glock G19 in 9mm.

[SansSouci]

Good Morning, Tompayne,

Right now, we're rowing in the same boat. I'm fixin' to pick up a dedicated concealed carry weapon.

You're gonna get lots of opinions. While helpful, with darn near 100% accuracy, they're not going to be helpful to you. We're all different. We have have different needs.

Here's my take: a concealed carry handgun is your last resort for saving your life. You can't run away, you can't hide: you have to fight to live.

The distance between you and a bad guy who wants you at room temperature will be 10' or less. That doesn't leave many options. A bad guy with his heart in shreds will still live 8 seconds, more than long enough to room temperature you. If the distance between a bad guy and you is favorable, run away as though you're running into Kate Upton's arms.

If you're confronted by a bad guy, expect at least another bad guy in the vicinity. That means you'll be up against a ratio of 2:1, or 3:1. A ratio of 1:1 is bad odds for the good guy.

At 10' or less, if your gun jams, you're probably looking at becoming property of your county's corner. Therefore, buy the best damned handgun you can afford. Never go lesser quality on anything designed to keep you paying taxes.

For self-defense, nothing beats a good semiauto. I know that there are exceptionally good-quality wheel guns. And in a 1:1 scenario, and a good guy sportin' a revolver chambered for .38 Special +P or better has a better than decent chance of living to tell cops his heroic tale. However, revolvers take a long time to reload five or six more rounds. Worse, you'll have to take your eyes off of a bad guy who's putting rounds on you in order to assure rounds in your speed loader align with chambers of your revolver's cylinder. Keeping in mind that self-defense is a very personal decision, you gotta go with what'll work best for you.

I can reload a semiauto in lest than half the time it takes to reload a revolver, and I can keep my eyes on my adversary(ies) while I'm reloading.

In the revolver failures that I've experienced, they were all catastrophic, meaning I was out of the fight. Nealy all semiauto malfunctions can be cleared in a second or less.

The best and most reliable handgun I own is a semiauto, and that includes Smith & Ruger revolvers.

As far as cartridges go, remember that you're choosing one that will accord you maximum opportunity to save your life. While I don't want to digress to a cartridge debate, for me, the FBI load is minimum for saving my life. But I don't like minimum except for taxes, so I'd rather have a .40 S&W. I'd prefer a .45 ACP, but even scaled down versions of the 1911 are heavy.

While I have enough LE ammo to last me the rest of my life, I don't get nutted up over hollow points, esoteric ammo (Cor-Bon, etc), and other gimmick ammo (frangible). If I'm using 230 grain ball, I'd expect it to weigh 230 grains when recovered.

The FBI load I prefer when carrying a .357 Mag for bipedal self-defense is .38 Special 158 LSWC +P. I'm OK with the HP version of the FBI load, but I prefer the LSWC version. I've carried .45 ACP 230 grain ball and never felt the least bit slighted. I'd carry 180 grain ball ammo in a .40 S&W and feel just as good were I carrying the latest version of Exceptional Expansion ammo from Acme Ammo and Casket Company. This rule does not apply to LE ammo.

I've never relied upon any hollow point to flower like advertisement mushrooms. Life seems to get in the way. If you have to shoot through a barrier to stop a bad guy, your wife might just be receiving flowers and consolation. I'd rather have penetration than expansion. Unless a bad guy's CNS is decommissioned, you're gonna have to reduce his blood pressure to zero yesterday to assure that he'd stop putting rounds on you. That means rapid blood loss.

I live by Gunfighting Rule 1: The only assured way of surviving a gunfight is to not get in one.

Rule 2: if Rule one is unavoidable, don't get shot. If you were to find yourself in gunfight, it'll be because a bad guy wants you dead. That sounds worse than rap "music", which is why I'll always go with Rule 1.

There's a damned good chance that I'll be buying a Sig P-239 very soon. It will be in .40 S&W because I already own a .40 & I don't own a 9MM. I don't want to complicate stuff if I don't have to. If I buy it, and I think that my contact will have my back, I'd be good with either LE ammo or ball ammo. The ammo ain't as important as 100% handgun reliability. A round that won't fire due to handgun malfunction is harmless.

Buy the best quality handgun you can afford. Its intent is to save your life. Buy your wife or girlfriend cubic zirconia. Buy yourself the best quality handgun you possibly can. After all, how much is your life worth? Besides, what are the odds that she'll figure out that the ice she's sportin' is zirk? Prepare a good line of self-defense if she were to catch on, or at least practice ducking so you won't take one on the chin.

I know that this will constipate some posters: I would never consider anything less powerful than a 9MM/.38 Special +P for saving my life. As I've written, I'd prefer a .45 ACP, but they're heavy guns. The irony is a 1911 is one of the easiest guns to conceal. But if a poster is good with a .380 Auto, who the heck am I to tell him he's wrong? He knows what's right for him. I think that were I lucky to hit a guy who's putting rounds on me, I'd want to inflict max damage with that one hit.

One last thing: bad guys who are under the influence of myth & PCP require "advanced strategies," for lack of a better term. In other words, normal physiological responses don't apply to them. Besides that, they look like reptiles molting year 'round. You can spot 'em by dead skin trails on the ground or listening for their teeth to bounce of tile or concrete. Dusters' eyes bounce like dice tumbling down a craps' table. Stay as far away from tweakers (myth) and dusters (PCP) as possible.

Remember this fact: if you die, you'll lose. That's why Rule 1 is so damned important.


Best of luck to you & stay safe.

[T. O'Heir]

.380 vs 9mm(there is no 'vs' either) is an apples and oranges comparison. They're really not comparable in any way. Closest you can get(there are no like bullet weights to compare) is Hornady 90 grain XTP's in .380 with 100 grains XTP's in 9mm. The 9mm has more energy at 50 yards than the 90 grain started with.
Other than that, you have to be concerned with how a wee pistol fits your hand too.

[Cheapshooter]

If you have an interest in a 380 as large as the LC380, you might as well get the LC9 that it is based on. The only advantage of the 380 over the 9MM is the smaller "mouseguns" it is chambered in. The LC380 came about because some recoil sensitive people complained about the "snappy" recoil in the LCP chambered in 380. So Ruger rechambered their larger, and somewhat heavier LC9 in 380acp. At the same time, it also thus offered a gun the size of the LC9 in a milder recoiling round for those who found the recoil of the 9MM objectionable.
So if the LC380, or Bersa Thunder size is concealable enough for you, and are not bothered by the recoil of the 9MM round, you might as well go with the more powerful version.

[ammo.crafter]

It may come down to personal choice, concealment, etc.

I usually carry (summertime) an AMT 380 with Hornady Critical Defense ammo.

Never had a FTF or FTE.

When clothing allows, it's a9mm 147gr Hi-power in an Alien IWB holster.

[gc70]

Originally Posted by Cheapshooter

So Ruger rechambered their larger, and somewhat heavier LC9 in 380acp. At the same time, it also thus offered a gun the size of the LC9 in a milder recoiling round for those who found the recoil of the 9MM objectionable.

That perfectly described my wife's reason for buying an LC380 rather than an LC9 after she had reconstructive surgery on her hand.

Originally Posted by Cheapshooter

The only advantage of the 380 over the 9MM is the smaller "mouseguns" it is chambered in.

I used to believe that until I shot my wife's LC380 repeatedly in comparison to LC9, LC9S, and LC9S Pro pistols in 9mm. My revelation was how easy it was to shoot the .380 a lot faster and more accurately than the 9mm guns.

[rock185]

Hello and welcome Tompayne. Others have shared knowledgeable advice, so I'll add my 2¢ worth. Since you are familiar with revolvers, is a small 5-shot S&W or Ruger a possibility? The Ruger is available in 9MM, and the S&W used to be and can be found on the used market. I'd definitely recommend a 9MM over the .380. I have no experience with Bersa, but did witness a couple of my co-workers attempting to qualify with their little Ruger .380s. Don't know what ammo they were using, but they were constantly jamming. I haven't carried any of the tiny plastic framed guns now available, but often as not carry an alloy-framed S&W 642 38 Spcl., or a S&W 3913 9MM. They are a little bigger and heavier than the tiny .380s, but have worked out well for me for a long time. Many good Duty/SD factory 9MM ammunition is available now days. One I, and apparently a lot of others, think highly of is the Federal 124 +P HST. Attached a photo of 3913, 642 and 940 9MM at bottom. Good luck in finding the gun and ammo that meets your needs.

[JDBerg]

Originally Posted by The OP:

....choices for concealed carry because automatics seem to be the way to go. I want something discrete, not too heavy, but with enough ammo to stop an immediate threat or at least buy time to disengage. The Ruger LC380 and Bersa Thunder concealed carry & plus models seem of interest in the smaller calibers. Any recommendations of either of these or a comparable 9mm counterpart?

I need to have substantial time at the range to practice with anything I'm going to carry, so that I am convinced that the pistol is absolutely reliable and accurate enough for the intended purpose. I can't shoot a Ruger LC380 to my satisfaction, and I'd be concerned about holster selections that will fit that Bersa properly. And I want 9mm, my Walther PPS M2 fits the bill for me, it carries beautifully with every holster I've tried with it, with the flush fit 6 round mag, and I carry 2 extra 8 round mags. And it is absolutely reliable and very accurate for its size. My Glock 19 is better but bigger, but you can't argue about holster availabity with a G-19!

[Nathan]

For its size, a S&W 340 or 640 is a great pocket or super small carry gun. In 38 +P or 357 mag, that is a lot of power in a pocket. Reloads are slow, but not impossible.

[RKG]

My candidates:

SIG P239, 9mm, with 115 grain Hornady XTP at about 1,100 fps in a DeSantis Speed Scabard.

SIG P238, .380 ACP, with 95 grain XTP at about 950 fps, in a Sneaky Pete.

[Tompayne]

Some great input. I do intend on test firing a couple before I make my choice, either through rental or accompanying a friend to the range. As for the concealment issue, I'm medium build, on the shorter side, and live in a fairly temperate climate, so I'm looking for something that doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. I'm not opposed to most holstering arrangements, but think that a double stack 9mm, while providing capacity, might just be a wee bit big. And, yes, I realize that the main focus should be on protection, but I go to places (legally) where discretion is also a consideration.

Again, thanks all for some valuable information!

[DMK]

I personally would not use .380 Auto for self-defense unless you just absolutely had to have a very small subcompact pistol. The problem with .380 Auto ammo has been that is tends to expand or penetrate, but usually not both.

... If you can go with a pistol the size of the M&P Shield, I think you would be much better served with 9mm Luger.

I agree with this completely.

Compare the results of .380 to 9mm here:

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

[SDF880]

Lots of good choices for pistols and ammo. As for me I go with Kahr CT-380
when I carry 380 and Kahr CM-9 for 9MM. I use Underwood ammo in both.
I generally carry something that starts with a 4.

[DMK]

As for the concealment issue, I'm medium build, on the shorter side, and live in a fairly temperate climate, so I'm looking for something that doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. I'm not opposed to most holstering arrangements, but think that a double stack 9mm, while providing capacity, might just be a wee bit big.

That's why my EDC is a single stack S&W Shield 9mm in an IWB holster.

I would prefer to have my double stack CZ PCR with me all the time, but the Shield is much easier to conceal, lighter weight and is still an effective combat handgun.

[Rangerrich99]

This may or may not be a concern, but .380 ammo is more expensive than 9mm ammo.

[FNS-40]

Glock 42 or 43.

[Roland Thunder]

I have a Kahr PM9.

It's the smallest 9mm I know of that can be pocket carried

[Sawyer.N]

If you are comfortable shooting 9mm, then buy a 9mm pistol. I would never personally carry anything smaller than 9mm. I carried a glock 19 for the better part of 3 years, until my girlfriend purchased a sigp238. I was amazed at its size and decided to try out a sigp938. the sig p938 is now my edc weapon of choice! 7+1, with extra mag and I believe im squared away just fine. Took some getting used to, its a bit snappy but I recommend the sigp938 as the best pocket pistol ive every had the opportunity to shoot.