The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 5, 2020, 09:00 PM   #1
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 589
Older gent with some strange issues

I'm looking to see if someone can help me remote diagnose some shooting problems my brother is having.

He's a USMC vietnam vet and was trained on the M14. He recently purchased a brand new Springfield M1A1. He says that it BS, it is an M14 . We were shooting with the stock peep sight today.

He has glasses with prisms. He was shooting all over the place while using a rest, low, over.... just everywhere. He said the rifle is sloppy, his glasses prevented him, etc, etc.

I shot it and printed a group around the bull at 50 yards.

He got frustrated and fired 5 shots at a fresh target at 50 yards off-hand with a hasty sling and put the rifle down and walked away. I looked in the spotting scope and he had scored 5 hits in the black.

Why would he shoot so poorly off of a rest, and shoot so well off hand?

I think he is way too far back off the sights, but he likes to remind me he qualified expert back in his day, so I didn't feel real good about coaching him when he was so clearly frustrated.

But, I'd like to be able to gently get him to where he is having fun next time we meet up.
ghbucky is offline  
Old August 5, 2020, 09:16 PM   #2
Blindstitch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2013
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Posts: 2,564
Maybe the glasses angle is causing odd magnification. Here's a similar example. When I'm shooting archery basically with a peep sight and wearing sun glasses I don't hit the same point everytime due to some weird magnification going on. Take the glasses off and I can stack the arrows up.

Something similar might be happening with your brother.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member
Blindstitch is offline  
Old August 5, 2020, 10:38 PM   #3
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,108
It's an M14 if its so stamped on the receiver hump and has a functioning selective fire lever.

Some Vietnam vets with minor mental issues and bad memories behave that way so go along with his feelings and you'll both be better off.

Last edited by Bart B.; August 5, 2020 at 10:47 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old August 5, 2020, 10:50 PM   #4
pwc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2018
Location: AZ
Posts: 196
You have to wait for that teachable moment. To not do so will frudyrate you both. If he is doing something wrong, but it's working...wait until it doezn't..then recommend. In this case I would encourage offhand to build confidence, then ask questions leading him to find his own answer, that you already THINK you know.
pwc is offline  
Old August 5, 2020, 11:20 PM   #5
Rangerrich99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2014
Location: Kinda near Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,236
it may really be a problem with the glasses. Not that they're defective or anything, but simply how he's looking through them.

Here's what happened in my case. A few years ago I decided i finally needed to get some glasses. I picked out my frames, lenses, and within a few days i had 20/20 vision again.

Then i went and shot some pool that weekend. Wow. I couldn't make a table-length shot to save my life. It was very frustrating because I could quite clearly see the object ball, the cue ball and the tip of my cue; I made all my adjustments the way I always did, stroked the shot and just missed over and over.

Finally one of my buddies asked me if I'd ever shot pool wearing glasses before, and of course I said no. He told me to try and keep my chin up. He said that I was used to kind of tucking my chin down, which changed the angle at which the light entered the lenses. Basically because the light was traveling through an angled lens it was creating a small distortion, which was cuasing me to miss.

Well, I didn't believe it at first, but when I got back on the table, I bent over and just looked at the other end of the table, and lo and behold, there was a slight distortion. The other end rail appeared just a tiny bit curved. Then I tried lifting my chin so that I was no longer looking through the tops o fmy glasses, and the distortion went away. A few games later I was back to making those long table shots.

On the range it was the same thing except by then I knew what the solve was. My natural tendency was to tuck my chin down, which made shots beyond 7 yards more inconsistent. Once I lifted my chin so that I was looking through the center of the lens, my shooting improved instantly.

A couple years later i sometimes still tuck my chin down, but as soon as I see an off-hit, basically a bullet landing somewhere besides where I thought it should go, I just lift my chin a fraction of an inch and usually the problem goes away.
Rangerrich99 is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 12:09 AM   #6
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 6,915
Cataract Surgery

A Vietnam Vet will be about my age. I'm 68.

Around last Dec I decided my eyes really needed new glasses.

Now,sometimes,shooting a 1911,the slide and the sights would disappear like they fell into road mirage. My right and left eye battled for dominance.

Yes,I could miss falling plates a 7 yards.

My eye Doctor told me he could not even write a prescription for my right eye.

Oh,Bummer.

But then he said I have cataracts,and he had the power to recommend I have cataract surgery.

My medicare covered very well. It was quite affordable The surgery had me on the cot less than one hour. I was awake and it was not uncomfortable.

Surgery was in the AM. They told me to take the patch off and dose eye drops at 2:30 PM. I had the other eye done early July.

I've worn strong glasses since 8 yrs old. Witin 24 hours,at distance I see 20/20,both eyes,no glasses. Best I've ever been able to see.
This is not lasik. Its a cornea replacement. Night driving is much better about headlight glare.

YMMV...I have not yet receieved my anesthetis bill,but with the Medicare I have,my co-pay was $275 per eye. I had to pay a little more than that for eyedrops.
I chose single vision,distance implants

At arms length 2 hand hold,my handgun sight picture is clean and sharp.

I've lost close up vision. 2.5 diopter reading glasses work great.

I'm due to see my original eye doctor in about a week. I have some ideas about polarized auto darkening ,no line bifocals,with just a little window of 2.5 diopter for close up.

I don't know your friend has cataracts.I'm not an eye doctor.

But,Boy Howdy,if your friend DOES have cararacts, I'm happy with my results

Moderators: I put this here to help the OP's Veteran Friend (maybe)

But after a bit,you might move it so the general Olde Shooter would likely see it Thanks!!

Last edited by HiBC; August 6, 2020 at 02:14 PM.
HiBC is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 06:32 AM   #7
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 589
If it is a vision issue, why would he suddenly be the lone ranger firing off hand, but be unable to hit what he's aiming at while on a rest? That's the part that has me really puzzled.

I told him, he should just shoot off hand! He's the only person I know that is better off hand then supported.

Levity aside, off-hand is too physically taxing for him to do for more then for a couple of minutes.

Next time we meet, I think I'll get him to fire off-hand and study his position, and then see what he is doing on the rest. I'm thinking he is changing something when shooting from a rest.
ghbucky is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 06:48 AM   #8
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 6,915
recoil wise,the bench can be uncomfortable.Offhand its easier to roll with it.

I'd guess offhand you can concentrate on sight picture as you squeeze. Could be on the bench recoil anticipation leads to a little cringe as the trigger is breaking. Or eyes close.

He might look into a P.A.S.T. pad. The thinner one. You can wear it under a BDU shirt. Its Sorba-Thane,I think. reduces felt recoil a bunch.You might find one on Amazon
HiBC is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 06:53 AM   #9
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 589
great point HiBC. That never occurred to me.
ghbucky is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 07:36 AM   #10
old roper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Posts: 1,988
I'm Vietnam Vet @ 78 so might be my age. I haven't shoot any type military rifle since got out. Just leave him alone might be best.
__________________
Semper Fi
Vietnam 1965
VFW Life member
NRA Life Member
old roper is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 10:18 AM   #11
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 16,478
I am not going to tell a veteran that a commercial rifle that looks like an M14 is not one. Note that "M1A" is a Springfield Armory Inc trademark. Other makers like Fulton Armory and Norinco just call their semiautomatic copies "M14."

I'm not going to tell him he doesn't load his .45 with clips, either.
And I gave up on correcting my Uncle that the Springfield rifle he carried on Corregidor was not a .30-30.

As to accuracy, I suspect that you had him hunkered down on a bench looking through the edge of his glasses. A taller bench or tall rest that would let him center the sights in the lens would help if that were the case. A more erect sitting position would help on recoil, too.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 11:36 AM   #12
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 5,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghbucky View Post
I'm looking to see if someone can help me remote diagnose some shooting problems my brother is having.

He's a USMC vietnam vet and was trained on the M14. He recently purchased a brand new Springfield M1A1. He says that it BS, it is an M14 . We were shooting with the stock peep sight today.

He has glasses with prisms. He was shooting all over the place while using a rest, low, over.... just everywhere. He said the rifle is sloppy, his glasses prevented him, etc, etc.

I shot it and printed a group around the bull at 50 yards.

He got frustrated and fired 5 shots at a fresh target at 50 yards off-hand with a hasty sling and put the rifle down and walked away. I looked in the spotting scope and he had scored 5 hits in the black.

Why would he shoot so poorly off of a rest, and shoot so well off hand?

I think he is way too far back off the sights, but he likes to remind me he qualified expert back in his day, so I didn't feel real good about coaching him when he was so clearly frustrated.

But, I'd like to be able to gently get him to where he is having fun next time we meet up.
Prism says it all.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 01:49 PM   #13
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 589
Quote:
Prism says it all.
Can you elaborate? Is there some way to work around it?

A detail from yesterday I forgot: He picked up my AR with a 1 moa red dot sight and hit a silhouette at 330 yards in 3 or 4 (I forget which) shots.

.
ghbucky is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 02:14 PM   #14
pwc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2018
Location: AZ
Posts: 196
Don't know your case, but my range has concrete benches and wooden bench type seats. The seats are too tall; from bench with sandbag rifle rest under forestock, causes shoulder to roll forward putting collar bone against butt (with offhand under toe of stock). I turn the seat on its side to lower MY butt causing the rifle to fit in my shoulder pocket where it should, and all I have to do is lean my cheek over to the stock for cheek weld and center eye (with glasses) in sight.
pwc is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 03:10 PM   #15
stuckinthe60s
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2017
Location: Va., Ct., Mo..
Posts: 402
did he ask for help?
if not...just have fun with the guy and pop off rounds.
__________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
Distinguished Pistol Shot,NRA Shotgun/Pistol Instructor
NSSA All American, Skeet/Trap Range Owner

Last edited by stuckinthe60s; August 7, 2020 at 04:12 PM.
stuckinthe60s is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 03:39 PM   #16
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 589
Quote:
did he ask for help?
if not...just have fun with the guy at pop off rounds.
Might be the advice I'll follow. I know the man can shoot. It is just frustrating to see him being frustrated and struggling.
ghbucky is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 04:11 PM   #17
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 14,279
Quote:
He says that it BS, it is an M14
No, It's an M1A not an M14, it's not select fire. M14s had the rock 'n roll switch originally. Of course, the military took them out because the rifle was uncontrollable in full auto, so maybe your brother didn't know that.

Also, the M1A1 is a tank (Abrams to be precise).
Quote:
Why would he shoot so poorly off of a rest, and shoot so well off hand?
He may have been resting the rifle on the magazine, or on the gas system, or on the barrel, or whatever. Shooting from the bench has as much technique involved as shooting offhand.
Quote:
but he likes to remind me he qualified expert back in his day
THat was then, this is now. Rifle marksmanship is a perishable skill.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Taylor Machine
Scorch is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 04:17 PM   #18
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 16,478
Quote:
It's an M14 if its so stamped on the receiver hump and has a functioning selective fire lever.

No, It's an M1A not an M14, it's not select fire.
Why is no one so precise and precious about the many many knockoffs of the 1911?
Jim Watson is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 04:27 PM   #19
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 589
He can call it an M60 for all I care.
ghbucky is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 04:29 PM   #20
Don Fischer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2017
Posts: 1,754
I suspect him being a combat vet he was taught how to shoot properly Most people today don't get that! His job was not to shoot tiny group's but rather to kill the enemy. I've been on a number of different rifle range's in 8 yrs in the AF. Something I never saw on the military range was a bench rest.

In another site some guy asked about getting his kid a rifle. One poster spoke up and told him to also get the kid a bipod so shooting is easier for him. Another suggested kids today are more interested in video games than shooting and won't practice so the bi pod was a great idea. I suggested forgetting the bi pod and teach the kid to shoot! Boy did I get my butt handed to me. One guy suggested I was simply trying to impose my morals on everyone else. Actually I was thinking the kid would be a lot better off he he actually learned to shoot from field positions! I guess I was wrong!
Don Fischer is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 04:31 PM   #21
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 589
Don, every Marine receives intensive marksmanship training and shooting tiny groups is the point of the training.

The USMC marksmanship manual is available online. Its worth a read.
ghbucky is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 05:41 PM   #22
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 5,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghbucky View Post
Can you elaborate? Is there some way to work around it?

A detail from yesterday I forgot: He picked up my AR with a 1 moa red dot sight and hit a silhouette at 330 yards in 3 or 4 (I forget which) shots.

.
A prism causes all kinds of crazy issues lining up sights. Past that I dont know why, but I know it does. Red dot is parallex free, so it makes sense he could shoot it well. When standing, he was probably only looking at front sight and that was mitigating the vision problem.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 06:26 PM   #23
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: Potatoes and Hops
Posts: 12,500
I am inclined to suspect the lenses, before anything else.
But it could be cheek weld, stressing the stock, or any number of other factors.


Quote:
(...) but he likes to remind me he qualified expert back in his day, (...)
That doesn't take much. It just means that you are above average in a pool of lowest common denominators.
I know that hurts some people's feelings, but it's the truth. No matter the branch of service, "Expert Marksman" is just a feel-good award for not sucking as bad as everyone else.

Case in point:
I qualified "Expert" in 3-round burst with an M16A2. That's how low the expectations are.
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 07:35 PM   #24
SHR970
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2011
Posts: 1,402
Prism Lenses gives the tell. In eye glasses there are numbers for near /far correction and astigmatism correction. With Prism lenses there is yet another set of numbers to clear up the double vision distortion for (usually) height or width but in some cases both.

If you look at his targets and shooting style from the bench look to see if one eye is shut. If so look for the offset on the target. Then compare to standing....chances are that in one scenario he is one eye open and the other both eyes open. If so that is the issue.

It likely is the difference between combat shotgun style shooting (for situational awareness) vs. sniping (for pecision). If this is the case than the prism offset is confusing him and he needs to learn the mental adjustments.
SHR970 is offline  
Old August 6, 2020, 08:20 PM   #25
zoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 2, 2019
Posts: 312
Good he is out shooting though. As we age we need to be able to adapt to our vision changes. This does not sound like "strange issues" and a need to make psychological diagnosis like PTSD for crying out loud. Although I will admit finding that analysis humorous. Just wait until you get into your sixties and up!
zoo is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10644 seconds with 8 queries