|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
September 1, 2017, 07:23 AM | #26 | ||
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,819
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
||
September 1, 2017, 07:23 AM | #27 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 25, 2006
Location: The Keystone State
Posts: 1,967
|
The jury
Don't overlook a jury's perception of a shooting and
views about issues related to the case as well as wit- nesses who may be called to testify. Voir dire is also very important.
__________________
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson |
September 1, 2017, 08:48 AM | #28 | ||
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Quote:
Quote:
Some important evidence may never be made known to the jury. Some of that may have been lost at the scene--empty shells, an edged weapon.... Some may be ruled inadmissible---GSR test data and related expert testimony if the ammunitionn had been hand loaded. Other evidence may be incomplete--something moving into the way of video images at an important time. |
||
September 1, 2017, 08:50 AM | #29 | |
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Quote:
The reason that things go to trial in the criminal justice system is to determine who the criminal is. |
|
September 1, 2017, 10:06 AM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
|
Seems how other unqualified individuals have chimed in and seem to disregard the statements of qualified individuals I figure I can chime back in.
Being on trial indicates that the use of a firearm was not so simplistic as to be simply accepted as being self defense or some other legal use. I suppose, an even worse case scenario, is that it is politically motivated and the prosecutor is trying for a political conviction without regards to the actual facts. The original poster asked about evidentiary concerns. My mistake in my original replies as I am most interested in (but no qualified to give legal advise) on jury deliberations and how evidence may impact a jury (see the Harold Fish) case. A "standard" load created, marketed, and produced by a neutral third party is not likely, in my unqualified opinion, to present remarkable evidentiary concerns. The two concerns are: does the evidence produced support the chain of events as told by the defendant and if the evidence does not why does it not. For the purpose of this discussion I am going to assume the defendant's memory is accurate and the his or her telling of the chain of events is truthful - obviously both of these things are in question in a non-theoretical discussion. If the evidence does support the chain of events as told by the defendant then everything is wonderful. In this case the prosecution is not likely to bring it up and, as the defendant is not likely to testify, it is not likely to be part of the defense. The prosecution, in seeing exactly how a particular brand of ammo functions in regards to a particular test is likely to purchase some of that ammo off the shelf and test the results against it. Everything lines up you are good to go. What if it doesn't line up? This is where you, as a defendant, have a clear advantage over hand-loaded ammunition. Why do you recollect the shooting happening at a couple yards while the prosecution finds evidence, such as gun shot residue, that shows it occurring at a much longer range. You at this point are going to be left questioning the manufacturing process. You're team can pull a few hundred rounds and start testing for consistency - an inconsistency would throw off the test results and throw off the evidence introduced by the prosecutor. Frankly I am not certain how a database of evidentiary material would help you. It is unlikely the prosecution is going to use round specific evidence to clear you and its unlikely your defense is going to find such detailed forensic information to be central to your case if things have gone that badly for you. In a justified shooting defense you are basically only trying to maintain your version of the events as simply as possible. Evidence introduced to be used against you will need to be called into question or obscured some how but I don't see that being an issue with commonly manufactured "boutique" ammunition that your defense will be readily able to purchase. |
September 1, 2017, 10:38 AM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,486
|
Just to give you something else to worry about, not all factory ammunition is alike, even if of the same brand and SKU. GSR from your lot might not be the same as gsr from what "CSI" can get to test, if it comes down to that.
|
September 1, 2017, 11:26 AM | #32 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2013
Posts: 975
|
Quote:
Edit: My knowledge of the case doesn't go much beyond this video. I think the relevant part starts around the 6 minute mark. If this guy is off his rocker in this analysis, then I am too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBkjdutVmFA Last edited by ATN082268; September 1, 2017 at 11:40 AM. |
|
September 1, 2017, 11:31 AM | #33 |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,819
|
^^Not forensic/admissibility issues. I'm operating purely from memory here, but it seems that post-trial interviews revealed that there was some discomfort (maybe even only one juror?) with the 10 mm that he carried. I'm not sure the case "hinged" on it, but one uncomfortable but vocal juror can make quite a difference in deliberations.
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
September 1, 2017, 11:35 AM | #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
After having sat in many, many court rooms my questions are #1 is it illegal and #2 How is it relevant?
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
September 1, 2017, 11:40 AM | #35 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
Quote:
Too many people get all wrapped around the axle about this. If you are the victim in a robbery and say the BG was 4 feet away when in reality he was 10 feet away it makes no difference.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
|
September 1, 2017, 11:44 AM | #36 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
Quote:
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
|
September 1, 2017, 12:05 PM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
|
"...using boutique ammunition may be..." And will be debunked just as fast as the whole use of reloads argument by any good lawyer.
"...GSR testing..." Nobody will retain Gun Shot Residue test results. GSR tests only prove a person fired a firearm. Doesn't ID the firearm, gun powder used or what cartridge. "...not favored in court..." More about civil suits by the criminals mommy and daddy looking to cash in. "...same kind of records of exactly..." Those records are only for the purpose of repeating the load. They have no use to anybody otherwise.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count! |
September 1, 2017, 12:23 PM | #38 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
|
Quote:
|
|
September 1, 2017, 01:07 PM | #39 | ||||
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
September 1, 2017, 01:21 PM | #40 | |
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Quote:
The issue irises when, if you say an attacker was moving at you from extremely close range, and good honest eyewitnesses whose attention was drawn to the situation only after you had moved some distance, you will likely have a credibility problem. That could be a killer. Perhaps, in some cases, expert testimony concerning the testing of the data from your ammunition will help prove your case. IF the jury is allowed to hear it.. |
|
September 1, 2017, 02:07 PM | #41 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
|
Quote:
|
|
September 1, 2017, 02:10 PM | #42 | |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,819
|
Quote:
"Probable cause" is a specific legal term, and only one part of the criminal trial process. Once probable cause has been found, the State must still prove each element of the crime charged beyond a reasonable doubt. The purpose of the criminal trial is to determine whether the State can do that. While an investigation is a fact-finding mission, it is the trial that establishes facts for legal purposes. In many appellate decisions, the appellate court makes reference to "the finder of fact," which may be the judge or the jury. If that finder of fact determines that "Spats McGee drove at 70 mph on Roosevelt Road," that fact becomes true for legal purposes. It does not matter how it was proved, whether anybody clocked me with a radar gun, or anything else. It becomes, legally, a fact.
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
|
September 1, 2017, 02:13 PM | #43 | |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,819
|
Quote:
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
|
September 1, 2017, 02:15 PM | #44 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
Quote:
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
|
September 1, 2017, 02:17 PM | #45 |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,819
|
^^^Perhaps, but do you expect the jury to know that?
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
September 1, 2017, 02:18 PM | #46 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
Quote:
I can't tell you how many times we would be looking from a brown 4 dr and it turned out to be a blue 2dr.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
|
September 1, 2017, 02:18 PM | #47 | ||
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
September 1, 2017, 02:19 PM | #48 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
Quote:
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
|
September 1, 2017, 02:26 PM | #49 | |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,819
|
Here was your original statement:
Quote:
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
|
September 1, 2017, 02:30 PM | #50 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
||
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|