Accuracy question

[T. O'Heir]

That a .44 or .357/.38?
"...inside a 4 inch circle at 25 yards..." Doesn't have to be 4" or 25 yards. Hitting a 9" pie plate every time at 10 or so yards will do nicely. With the ammo you intend hunting with.
"...put a red dot on it..." The dots are usually too big.
The most important part(trigger control, etc. aside) is knowing the capabilities of your cartridge at specific distances. That'd be the remaining energy and bullet drop.

[44 AMP]

No one can tell you how long it will take (how many rounds you need to fire), because #1, we're not watching you shoot, and #2, we're not YOU!

Its not something anyone can predict with any certainty. How long does it take you to master a certain eye/hand coordination? Everyone is different in this regard. Some have a natural gift, learn easily and can perform well, long before others.

You know how to shoot a rifle. Shooting a pistol is the same thing, only, without a stock, which of course, makes it a much different thing.

Thanks, I'll look into those red dots. And I prolly won't shoot off a rest since I'll be hunting in a deer stand. There is a railing on it that I might be able to shoot off of I haven't been up there or received my revolver yet to check. if it takes another year for me to be good enough then that's fine. I just don't want to wound a deer.

This is absolutely the right attitude to have!! Patience is the key. But don't overlook using a rest. NO experienced handgun hunter will tell you not to use a rest of some kind if possible. Anything you can use to brace yourself, and add stability is a good thing to use.

This is the biggest challenge for most folks when shooting a handgun, the fact that there is no stock to use to brace themselves and the gun together.

Also, I see you don't have the gun yet. After you get it, there is going to be a learning curve, (two, actually, magnum ammo is a ..bit different )

When you start shooting it, don't worry about group sizes. Each shot in a single shot, focus on getting that shot to hit your mark. Shoot offhand,AND shoot from a rested position. Shoot some with the gun on a rest, and shoot with the gun in your hands, and your arms on a rest, and see what kind of difference it makes, for YOU. And, expect things to change a bit as you gain experience.

How well, how steady you can hold the gun makes a huge difference. Again, other than the rare, gifted individual, NO ONE starts out with a rock solid steady hold, that is something you learn to do, with practice.

Dry firing, done right, is good practice. But understand that live fire teaches things dry fire cannot, such as how the recoil and muzzle blast will affect you.

A 6" S&W is a good hunting gun, once you get "basic" competence shooting it. The blast and recoil of magnum loads is something you have to learn to manage, and everyone does it at a different, individual rate.

Another way to look at it is, you learned to drive a car,, right? Now you're going to learn a motorcycle. And there's a difference between a dirt bike and a big road bike, too.

You're going to learn how much you don't know as you learn to shoot a handgun. You are going to have a lot of questions, ones that right now, you don't even know you are going to ask. Don't hesitate to ask even the most stupid sounding questions. We all began at zero.

Beware of information overload, and don't worry about who says what is, and isn't the "right" way to do things, until you have your gun, and can shoot it, and figure out what part of that information applies to you, and how.

Good Luck, and don't feel embarrassed by what you don't know yet. We're here to help.

[Justin62882]

^^ I will not shoot at a deer If I'm only hitting inside a 9 inch group at 10 yards. I refuse to. I don't know if you was serious or not. It's a .357/.38.... 44AMP, Thanks I'm sure I'll have some more questions. I'm gonna start with special loads for a few weeks. don't see the point in shooting magnum loads until I get some fundamentals down and got a little better. Cheaper that way too lol.

[Japle]

Justin,
Until you can put five shots into a 4" bullseye at 25 yds using a standing, two-hand hold on demand, you have no business hunting deer.
That's the minimum.

[NoSecondBest]

Justin,
Until you can put five shots into a 4" bullseye at 25 yds using a standing, two-hand hold on demand, you have no business hunting deer.
That's the minimum.

That's only your opinion. If Justin can use a rest and keep his shots within the 4" group there's no reason he can't hunt with his handgun. What he needs to do is shoot within his ability, and that might be using a rest. It's up to him to control himself, just like anyone else. I'm sure there are handicapped people hunting with handguns (and rifles also) that have to use a rest in order to make a good shot. As long as they do that, it's up to them to decide whether or not they should be taking the shot.

[K_Mac]

Justin, I like your attitude and commitment to getting it right. You already understand sight picture and trigger control. That gives you a good start to mastering your revolver.

Don't be discouraged transitioning from rifle to handgun. It sounds like you're good with your rifle. My guess is you've spent some time getting there. For most of us a handgun takes longer to master. I've been shooting revolvers a long time, but do not shoot them enough to be good enough to confidently hunt with one. I'm much better with my semiautomatics because I have spent a lot of time and money pursuing excellence with them. When I think I have achieved it I shoot with someone who is really good...

My only recommendation other than practice is getting some instruction from someone who has the skills you want. A little training will very likely save you time and money. There is no substitute for learning from someone who has already been there and done that.

[HighValleyRanch]

4" group at 25 yards? Maybe years.
That would translate to 2 inch group at 12 yards, and a 1 inch group (all shots touching) at 6 yards. Alot of internet shooters can easily do that, but in the real world after attending many, many competitions and CCW qualifying classes, fewer actual shooters can achieve that consistently.

[Justin62882]

Looks like I got alot of practice ahead of me then. And it's fine. I got time. I'm really excited to have something to go shoot at the range I can't accurately shoot with a scope in just a few shots then put it up in the safe til checking sights before hunting. It's different if it was the only thing I had to hunt with but I bow hunt and shotgun hunt so I'll just take my time. In your guys opinion how good would you shoot at 25 yards before taking a deer?

I don't know alot about competition shooters but do they take there time for shots. I'm looking for one good shot at a deer. So when I take my 6 shots in that target I'll be taking my time not rapid fire or rushing. When it all comes down to it as long as I'm putting my first cold bore shot in there I guess that's what matters as that will be the shot I need to take the deer with.

[44 AMP]

Originally Posted by Japle

Until you can put five shots into a 4" bullseye at 25 yds using a standing, two-hand hold on demand, you have no business hunting deer.
That's the minimum.

what, no requirement to do it in 3 seconds or less???

How about "until you can type 80+ words a minute, with no errors (and no auto correct) you have no business posting on the Internet. That's a minimum." (sarcasm intentional)

What size group one can shoot at a given range in order to humanely take deer at that range is a bit of a red herring.

If the OP were going to be using a single shot, like the T/C Contender, no one here would be talking about a required minimum group size.

They'd be talking about getting that one shot dead on target.

And that's ALSO what the OP says he wants to be able to do. Get that first shot dead on target.

I've never shot a 2" or ever a 4" group from my Contenders, every one has been the perfect one hole group. But that's because of the way I measure it. There is no spread between centers when you're only shooting one shot.

So, let's not be filling the OP's head with requirements that he'll "have" to be able to do, before he even has a pistol to shoot. Rather lets give him goals to "shoot for" once he does have something to shoot with...

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

4" group at 25 yards? Maybe years.
...Alot of internet shooters can easily do that, but in the real world after attending many, many competitions and CCW qualifying classes, fewer actual shooters can achieve that consistently.

My metric for good (but not outstanding) shooting is an honest and consistent 3"@25 yards. That's 5 rounds, standing unsupported with a service-sized handgun and under no particular time constraint (well-rounded revolver shooters should be able to do this in double as well as single action). Just pick up the weapon and shoot your 5 best. All shots count; no "those were fliers" nonsense, and 3@25 is representative of your ability - not the once-in-a-lifetime target that gets hung on the fridge.

I agree you won't find many that can shoot to this level at your local range, but IMO, the marksmanship of the majority of shooters is pretty abysmal. 3"@25 yards definitely takes quality practice, but it's certainly achievable by the average Joe with a modicum of quality practice and honest self-assessment.

As to the original question, I'd say I practiced for about a year (approx 10k rounds, +/- a few thousand) before being able to consistently shoot 3" or better at 25 yards. Regular dry fire and a decent .22 were big helps. Consistently focusing on the fundamentals during your practice is where the improvement comes. Just lobbing lead downrange ain't gonna do it, and a good reason why the marksmanship of most, as mentioned, is abysmal.

BTW, once you determine your effective kill range while at the range, keep in mind that range will likely decrease when you have a buck in your sights. Adrenaline and/or stress does funny things to one's accuracy (and those "funny things" generally aren't good ).

[NoSecondBest]

Ruger SP101 3"bbl ten shots fired off hand, double action at 25 yards. Full power 357mag 180g loads. This gun has fixed sights. It's not that hard to do with enough practice. A better "hunting gun" such as the S&W 686 6"bbl with a red dot being fired single action makes this really attainable with some reasonable regularly scheduled practice. If the OP is really committed to hunting with a handgun, he will be able to do so without a lifetime of intense practice being a requirement. If he applies himself to the task he'd be able to shoot groups like this at fifty yards. The bull in the pic is something like 3.8" in diameter.

[HighValleyRanch]

^^^^^^

The bull in the pic is something like 3.8" in diameter.

Is that a 25 yard NRA timed and rapid fire target?

I got a crossbow now and that took me about 10 bolts to shoot better than I could with a compound bow lol. Ready to shoot my first revolver.

I'm not a bow hunter, but I am an archer. I know that the standard over in the archery community is a 8" pie plate at twenty yards for a number of shots as the accuracy desired for bow hunting. Years ago, there was a yearly competition between the archers and pistol shooters to see which was more accurate. The archers won at least half the competitions.

I shoot instictive, no sights, and one day recorded my attempt to shoot twenty arrows into a 6 inch group at twenty yards with my short asian recurve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXC7x2LTvo8

I think most pistol shooters would be happy to keep 18 out of 20 into a 6" group at 20 yards....
but to be fair they would have to shoot without sights!LOL

[Rangerrich99]

Several decades ago when I first started getting into deer hunting, I was told that I needed to be able to put 5 rounds into an 8-inch paper plate at 100 yards with whatever rifle I planned to use. 8-inch plate because this was about the size of a deer's boiler room.

Much later when I decided to get into handgun hunting for deer I used the same idea: I wanted to be able to put 5 or 6 rounds into an 8-inch plate at 50 yards (the farthest I thought I might shoot at a deer).

If the OP can consistently shoot 4-inch groups at 25 yards, good for him; I don't think I can do that right now. Maybe I could when I was younger and had better eyes and such. But I can't see having to shoot better than the size of the deer's kill zone, which is about 8 inches across. If I were the OP I'd tape/staple a paper plate to whatever target at 25 yards and have at it. If he can keep them all in the inner portion of the plate then he should be good to go.

I think the biggest issue is really estimating distance; most people are not very good at that part and end up shooting at animals that are really too far away. Or he could get a rangefinder which is how I do it nowadays.

[Justin62882]

Well, I got my revolver in..dang is she gorgeous. I bought 600 rounds of ammo. That will last me a few weeks. Supposed to rain the next 3 days here so well see when I can go. I won't be using paper plates to practice. Personally, I use brown cardboard with a 2 inch ring when using testing my shotgun for deer..and a 1 inch circle for .22, I'll do the same thing for my revolver. The deer are brown not white. I just feel it helps me create a more realistic scenario. Then I just cover holes with tape. My grandpa always told me. Aim small miss small. That's just the way I was taught. In order to deer hunt when was twelve 18 years ago I had to hit a clay pigeon at 50 yards 3 times in a row. However, I used a red dot. it will probably take some time achieving that goal with a handgun. I don't want to be able to hit inside 8 inches
That's just way too much leeway for a non vital shot.

[NoSecondBest]

Is that a 25 yard NRA timed and rapid fire target?

It's a 20 yard timed or rapid fire target. Actual bull size is 3.78". I took the liberty of rounding it up to 3.8".....close enough.

[44 AMP]

My Father, who was a skilled hunter and shooter, NRA certified rifle and pistol instructor, and taught Hunter Safety courses every year, was a fan of the paper plate method. Sort of. His requirement was that you had to be able to hit near/at the CENTER of the plate.

No matter what the range, or weapon, if you could hit near the center of the plate, you could cleanly take deer with a boiler room shot.

HOWEVER, if you could only manage to hit the plate somewhere, then you needed more practice. And I'll stand with that, today. You need to be better than just hitting the plate somewhere, you need to be able to hit it somewhere near the center. If you can do that, then your bullet will be in a vital spot.

Good idea shooting brown targets, deer aren't white, unless its a whitetail and you're going for the "Texas heart shot" (shooing the deer in the rump as it bounds away. Not an easy task, nor are all guns able to penetrate enough for a clean kill)

Expect something a bit different when you go from shooting specials to magnums. Point of impact may change drastically, or it may only change a little, seems to depend on the gun. Drop at range changes a bit too. Depending on the range it might be something you need to adjust for, or it might not.

One gun I got to shoot was one of the SAA clones (its been decades, I forget the maker, but I do remember the performance), in .357Mag. Shooting .38s at 25yds, the gun was highly accurate. shot perfectly to point of aim. Same gun (fixed sights) shooting magnums, EVERY shot was at least a foot low and a foot left. And three different shooters had exactly the same results.

Never could figure out why it did that, there was no reason we could find, but it did do it. I don't expect your S&W to be anywhere near that, but do expect a slight change in point of impact compared to shooting .38s.

Some guns are more accurate with magnums, some aren't. Some shooters are more accurate with one load than the other, though its seldom a beginner is more accurate with magnums, it can happen, I've see that, too.
My Daughter was...
or, perhaps she just felt like showing off a bit.

Her (then) boyfriend wanted us to go shooting. My Daughter is smart (about nearly everything except picking boyfriends ) and hyper competent in some areas, which she hides quite well, most of the time. I taught her to shoot, and how to operate guns, but never insisted she practice, and she very seldom did. She knows how, just not really that interested.

So, we go out to a sand pit, do some plinking, Boyfriend shoots my Model 28 6" with .38s at an old 2x4 sticking out of the bank, range about 15yds...get 4 hits. Happy. Daughter fires a cylinder of .38s, get 3 or 4 hits...
Switch to magnums (my handloads) BF shoots gets 3 or 4 hits, and is excited, daughter isn't really interested, but he insists, "honey, you GOT to try this!!!"

Daughter looks at me, rolls eyes, I just nod...she takes the gun shoots a cylinder of magnums, hits 6 for 6!

Boyfriend just stands there with mouth hanging open...daughter goes to fix picnic lunch...I tell him, "if I were you, I wouldn't do anything to get her really mad at you...." after a bit, he gets his mouth closed, and nods slowly...

There is such a thing as natural talent, and some of the most unlikely people have it, sometimes.

[Justin62882]

Haha that's a good story and memory of you and your daughter. I bet you was proud. Hopefully i can just have talent like her and save a few thousand rounds lol. My grandfather tells me I'm a good shot with the guns I have. However, i haven't shot around many people to compare to. I think I shoot decent for the time I put in. Good enough to hunt and not worry about missing the vitals in my respectable ranges. I can be better. And this is gonna be a challenge and I'm very excited to be challenged. I should mention I have shot 357 magnums. Well I've shot 6 rounds total. Being the most powerful handgun caliber I've shot it wasn't horrible but its definitely noticeable. Here's a question..is it harder for people to shoot a compound bow accurately or a handgun?

[44 AMP]

Here's a question..is it harder for people to shoot a compound bow accurately or a handgun?

I have no real frame of reference for the bow (did shoot a recurve as a pre-teen), and I think its apples and oranges.

I would say the bow, as it requires both hands while the handgun only requires one. Two is better but one works.

I have read often over the years that a handgun takes roughly 3 times the amount of effort to master than the rifle. Don't know if its true, and can't say it isn't, but..there's been talk...

[NoSecondBest]

Here's a question..is it harder for people to shoot a compound bow accurately or a handgun?

I had to give this one a bit of thought. I think it's mixing apples and oranges here, but a comparison can still be made. I shot tournament archery for many, many years and did pretty good at it. I got my first bow when I was five and shot almost every day with my father and we both went to a lot of shoots. When I got to be twenty-one I got into handguns and ended up shooting them about every day and going to a lot of big shoots around the country. I ended up being a pretty decent shot with the handgun (and rifle and shotgun.....three gun shoots). Anyway, with a great many years of practice I can group my shots with the bow in about four inches at fifty yards and just a little bit under that with a handgun (both standing off-hand obviously). These are approximations, I never directly compared one versus the other. In any case, if you dedicated yourself to mastering both you'd probably come out with similar results out to around fifty yards if you were proficient with both.

[Justin62882]

That's dang good shooting for 50 yards. I was curious about the answer to that because I devoted alot of time shooting a compound bow. I loved every minute of it but it does take time

[Japle]

Most of the shooters I see at the range are happy to be able to keep all their shots on a zombie silhouette at 20 feet.
If that’s the best they can do, those people should not be hunting deer with a handgun.
Any standard is going to be arbitrary. My standard of a 4” group at 25 yds is something any reasonably skilled handgunner should be able to meet. An expert can produce 2” groups with the occasional 1” group thrown in.

I understand that many shooters consider my standard unreasonable. I suspect that’s because they can’t do it most of the time.

Now, if a handgunner is going to be shooting from a blind, with a solid rest, my standard should be applied to those conditions. Shooting a deer, especially the first time, is not the same as shooting a stationary paper target. You’re excited. The deer’s moving or might move at any second. Yanking the trigger is a very real possibility.
Skill and good habits are required.
If you don’t have the necessary skill, you shouldn’t be hunting deer with a handgun.
Period.

[NoSecondBest]

If you don’t have the necessary skill, you shouldn’t be hunting deer with a handgun.

Don't stop with a handgun, I've seen plenty of gut shot and lost deer from people using scoped rifles, shotguns, and bows. Ethics applies to any choice of hunting weapon. It's not unique to handguns. No hunter should take unethical shots with anything...however, a lot of them do.