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Old April 3, 2021, 09:16 AM   #1
Aspect
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Anyone use 7.62x54R Bullets to reload 7.7 Jap?

I'm gathering resources to shoot my Arisaka type 99. Can't find bullets.

I have a ton of 7.62x54R. I'm willing to sacrifice some rounds for this project.

My understanding is the bullet is 150 gr .312 diameter.

Safe or Unsafe? Or should I wait for bullets to come back?

I ran across this.

https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/77x58...kley-Data/6577

"Warning! Notes: This cartridge is the other Japanese service cartridge used during World War II. It is often referred to as the .31 Jap but actually it is neither a .30 or .31 calibre, but a .303, using bullets measuring .312-.314. Thousands of these rifles have been re-chambered to accept the regular .30-06 cartridge, but this is a dangerous conversion without setting the barrel back at least 3/8", because the Jap chamber is oversize at the butt for our standard cartridge thus increasing the danger of ruptured cases near the head. Reloaders should always use bullets measuring .311, rather than the standard .308 bullet. (Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders/Vol. 1 - P.O. Ackley, 1962) NOTE: USE THIS DATA WITH EXTREME CAUTION"
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Old April 3, 2021, 10:48 AM   #2
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I use .311 and .312 diameter bullets in the 7.7 Jap round.

I have a few mosins, a few Lee enfields and one Type 99 arisaka, and use the same bullets for all of them.


Pull some from your 7.62 x 54R rounds and follow load data for the 7.7 Jap and you should be fine
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Old April 3, 2021, 05:39 PM   #3
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If its a safe gun to shoot then that combo is safe but as long as your loads are safe.
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Old April 3, 2021, 06:32 PM   #4
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And then there are some others, like 303 British and mabe even 7.65 Belgian/Argentine....
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Old April 4, 2021, 01:28 PM   #5
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Pretty much anything .308" to .313" will work.
Start low and work up, as always.
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Old April 4, 2021, 02:30 PM   #6
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I use the same jacketed bullets in 7.62x54R, .303 British, and 7.7mm Jap. .311-.312" diameters, they work just fine.

Unlike the calibers used in WWII Europe, there was never any large quantity of Japanese ammo imported to the US after the war. This led to a lot of Arisakas being rechambered into "something it will shoot" and available in the US. This was not always done correctly or in suitable calibers. Ackley's warning about rechambered rifles is valid.

However, you can make usable 7.7mm Jap cases from .30-06 brass. Yes, the 06 case is slightly undersized at the base, but this is not a serious problem if you stick to the correct pressure range for the 7.7 round. Do NOT exceed mid 40k psi pressures.

If you can get commercial 7.7mm brass, by all means, do so. It was never common, or cheap but it used to exist before the various panics of the last few years. I have converted GI 06 brass (LC 53 and others of similar vintage) into 7.7 and they have lasted 3-4 firings, which is all I have put them through. They would probably last several more cycles, I've not used them enough to be sure. I did get a quantity of commercial 7.7 brass, but have never used it, (I don't shoot 7.7 that much) so its been in my "deep storage" locker, and still is, for when I need it.

The .303 British and the 7.7mm Jap are ballistic twins. Same bullets, same pressures, same speeds. This was, I am certain, intentional on the Japanese part. They wanted .303 British performance, just in a more modern case better suited for modern rifles and machineguns.

A couple points about shooting Arisakas, first, strength. Ackley's blow up tests found the Arisaka to be the strongest of what he tested. But, it needs to be understood that this was absolute failure strength, and has about nothing to do with ordinary shooting and loading for the rifle.

Second, watch the stocks. Arisaka stocks are usually multi-piece where other nations rifle stocks are one piece. Arisaka stocks are usually two or 3 pieces of wood, glued together. That glue is now very old and some of it hasn't "aged well". I have had Arisaka stocks come apart while shooting. particularly the forend. They didn't break, they just came unglued. Proper repair is just a matter of cleaning, using the right wood glue, clamps and drying time, etc.

I went to the linked website, nice table of loading data, with every charge weight block saying "subscribe". To me, that sent a message, and that message was "BUY A BOOK!"

All the IMR rifle powders are suitable for use in the 7.7mm though the fastest and slowest of them are less suitable. I usually use IMR 4895, because it duplicates the military ammo loads well, and does it in all three calibers, 7.62R, .303British and 7.7mm Jap. (also works well in a LOT of other calibers too).

Good Luck with your project.
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Old April 4, 2021, 04:52 PM   #7
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As I recall the Japanese navy 7.7 was identical to the 303.

Some pretty strange cartridge relationships involved there.

7.7 was supposed to replace the 6.5 but never did. Production issue were so bad they had some submarine loads included Italian 6.5 rifles (the Italians had some really good cargo subs)

But the insanity of your war effort when you have to order Italian rifles by submarine reaches new levels of the term, nuts.
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Old April 4, 2021, 08:13 PM   #8
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Japan used at least 3 different 7.7mm rounds, (possibly more, I'm not sure) which were not interchangeable.

There was a rimmed round, for use in their copy of the Lewis gun. There was a semi-rimmed round used in their Hotchkiss copy machine guns and the rimless round used in the Arisaka and some machine guns.

They also has several different 6.5mm rounds as well.

Haven't been able to find any source for the Japanese getting Italian rifles, delivered by submarine during WWII.

They did buy some 6.5 Carcanos, before WW I. Somewhere around 1905 or so, I think (not looking it up right now). apparently they wanted Mausers but the Italians gave them a better price. They used them to replace their Murata rifles in "national guard" type units, and they stayed in service through the end of WWII but were not front line arms.

They were not delivered by submarine during WWII. Though the Japanese did get examples of several German aircraft delivered by submarine. Me 109 was one, though they never built any of their own. The Japanese even bought a Tiger tank, but it was never delivered (or attempted to deliver) and after a while and some propaganda photos, the Germans took it back...

About every US and European military considered Japanese small arms ammo a logistical nightmare. And, by comparison, they were.

Quote:
My understanding is the bullet is 150 gr .312 diameter.
150s are available for sporting use. For duplicating their GI load, you want to use a 174gr slug. A 180gr is close enough.
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Old April 4, 2021, 08:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
They did buy some 6.5 Carcanos, before WW I. Somewhere around 1905 or so, I think (not looking it up right now). apparently they wanted Mausers but the Italians gave them a better price. They used them to replace their Murata rifles in "national guard" type units, and they stayed in service through the end of WWII but were not front line arms.
They were chambered for 6.5 Jap, with a box magazine instead of the Mannlicher magazine.
Price wasn't much of an issue for the Japanese, it was availability. The facilities producing Mausers simply didn't have any excess capacity with which to produce for Japan. But Italy did.
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Old April 4, 2021, 08:47 PM   #10
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Arisaka 38 type I was made in Italy. I have one with bent barrel. Haven't gotten a chance to un-bend it.

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Old April 4, 2021, 08:49 PM   #11
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Type 38 is not the same as Type I.
Type Is are a Carcano variant.
Type 38s are a Japanese design, produced within the empire.
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Old April 5, 2021, 09:16 AM   #12
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The 7.7mm rifle round is not a copy of the .303 Brit . They wanted a 8mm round like the one they were facing in China . They were already making 7.7mm barrels and bullets , they had the tooling . The 7.7x58mm cartridge it the 8x57mm case necked down to 7.7mm , the case gets a little longer with the neck down . And at 58mm it is a tad longer to the shoulder and that keeps it from chambering in most 8x57mm enemy rifles . They used a few different loading for this cartridge . A lighter loading for a little less recoil for their smaller troops and a heavier loading for the machine guns . If they had wanted a rimless .303 Brit they would have made one as they were already making rimmed .303 . The 7.7mm looks nothing like a rimless .303 .
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Old April 5, 2021, 01:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
They wanted a 8mm round like the one they were facing in China .
Its quite possible that the Japanese Army did. So, why not just adopt the 8mm Mauser, like the Chinese did??

I think at least part of the answer lies in internal Japanese politics and policies. When Japan entered its era of industrialization and modernization, it was heavily influenced by European ideas and practices. Mostly the British, Germans and French to a lesser degree.

They drive on the British side of the road, and the Imperial Japanese Navy was directly and intentionally patterned after the British Royal Navy. The Japanese Army more often used German or French models.

The Chinese had a number of German military advisors and adopted many German ideas, including the 8mm Mauser.

What is touched on in the histories, but not well understood in the West is the extreme rivalry between the Japanese Army and Navy. All nations have some, but the Japanese carried to extremes and "bitter hatred and contempt" is not out of line with the way some of those people acted.

If the Navy did something one way, the Army would not do it that way, unless there was simply no other option. In big things and small this was the general situation. One small thing, typifies the situation. Aircraft throttles.

Japanese Navy aircraft used the same throttle configuration as the British. (and the US and Germany, and...almost everyone else.) For more power, you push the throttle forward...

The Japanese Army adopted the French system, where for more power, you pull the throttle back...all the Army aircraft were made that way until the end of WWII. Why?? possibly (likely) just to be different from the Navy.

So what I think you have with the 7.7x58 is based on the what the Army wanted (8mm Mauser case) with the .303 British ballistic performance that the Navy wanted. Certainly a lot more involved in detail, but that's what it looks like from where I sit.

I said the 7.7 and .303 were ballistic twins, I never said they were identical, the cases are quite different. The bullets, however are the same, and shoot at the same speeds.
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Old April 6, 2021, 09:31 AM   #14
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They did not do 8mm as I stated , they already were making 7.7mm barrels and bullets . The 2nd 7.7mm machinegun ammo is not 303 performance , it is closer to 8mm performance .
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Old April 6, 2021, 09:53 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankenMauser View Post
Type 38 is not the same as Type I.
Type Is are a Carcano variant.
Type 38s are a Japanese design, produced within the empire.
Yes, I should have said Arisaka type I. It is different from type 38 in construction and made in Italy (for the navy?), except that they fire the same 6.5mm cartridge.

I was quite excited when I bought the rifle for low price, only to find out the last 12" or so of the barrel was bent to the left. Perhaps it was caused by bayonet practice.

-TL

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Old April 6, 2021, 12:59 PM   #16
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Quote:
I was quite excited when I bought the rifle for low price, only to find out the last 12" or so of the barrel was bent to the left. Perhaps it was caused by bayonet practice.
If the last foot of the barrel is bent, its unlikely it was bayonet practice. Generally speaking, bayonets, being thinner than rifle barrels, bend or break before the rifle does.

A bent barrel like you describe is usually the result of A) deliberate attempt to make the rifle unserviceable, or most likely, B) someone who didn't give a snit about the rifle using it as a prybar.
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Old April 6, 2021, 08:52 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
If the last foot of the barrel is bent, its unlikely it was bayonet practice. Generally speaking, bayonets, being thinner than rifle barrels, bend or break before the rifle does.



A bent barrel like you describe is usually the result of A) deliberate attempt to make the rifle unserviceable, or most likely, B) someone who didn't give a snit about the rifle using it as a prybar.
Any suggestion to straighten it? I don't have access to the barrel bender in an old time armoury. I am thinking about blocks of wood and big G clamps.

-TL

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Old April 6, 2021, 10:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Any suggestion to straighten it?
Best thing I can think of is to contact some of the people who make custom barrels and see what they say. Some might be willing to do the work for you.

However, be aware all you can count on is that you get a straight looking barrel for a wall hanger. You might get lucky and it might shoot acceptably well, after being professionally straightened, but I doubt you should count on that.

Another option is to just have the barrel replaced. You might find a parts dealer with a bin full of used barrels taken off other Arisakas, or if you're willing to spend the $ you could get a new barrel made to fit the gun and take the original sights and other parts.

personally, I'd go looking for another barrel first, and having the original straightened only as a last resort option. Check with the professionals, but I'd be willing to bet that straightening a barrel that gets slightly out of line (bent) in the manufacturing process is a different matter than one that is visibly bent because someone used it as a prybar or drove over it with a tank...
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Old April 7, 2021, 12:00 AM   #19
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It wasn't badly bent. You will need to look very carefully down the bore to notice it is indeed bent to the left. However it is enough to lopside the windage even with the front sight drifted all the way to the left. It is probably 1/16" in 12" (19 moa).

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Old April 7, 2021, 09:16 AM   #20
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The best laid plans of mice and men......

Turns out I found .312 150 Gr bullets selwayarmory and 7.7 Brass from midway.

Thanks for the tip about the old Glue.
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Old April 7, 2021, 04:46 PM   #21
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I wasn't aware that some bullets could only be used for Russian cartridges, while other bullets of the same build, weight, and size can only be used in Japanese or British or Argentine cartridges. Amazing!

It's a piece of metal in a certain weight, profile, and diameter. Use if for whatever it fits properly!
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Old April 7, 2021, 08:15 PM   #22
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The only time I would consider restricting a proper size bullet to the Russian/Soviet calibers would be if I were loading some "steel jacketed" bullets, which, I don't do.
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Old April 8, 2021, 03:57 AM   #23
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One thing I've found with 7.7 Arisaka brass is that in the books the cases are listed as having a head-size larger than 8mm Mauser but every 7.7 case I've gotten my hands on measures the same size as 8mm Mauser.

A long time ago I was able to measure a bring back round a friend of the family had and it was the same size as the cases on the Norma ammo I had and the cases I made from .30-06.

Any one else get a chance to handle any original Arisaka ammo.

BTW, I've had surprisingly good results loading .308" bullets in Arisaka rounds. It shouldn't work as well as it does at least in theory...

Tony
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Old April 8, 2021, 12:31 PM   #24
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Quote:
in the books the cases are listed as having a head-size larger than 8mm Mauser but every 7.7 case I've gotten my hands on measures the same size as 8mm Mauser.
Generally speaking the dimensions given on case drawings in the books are maximum dimensions. Ammunition is almost never made to these dimensions, it is almost always slightly smaller. In many cases, ammunition is made to be slightly smaller than the minimum specs.

This is totally intentional, and, in no way harmful. Its just prudent. If you're Blammo AMMO and you make your stuff to the max spec, some guy out there with a min spec chamber (that he probably doesn't know about) isn't going to be happy with your stuff. All he knows is he has to beat the rifle shut to get your ammo to chamber, so to him, your ammo is crap, and he's going to tell the entire world via the Internet that your ammo is crap.

Various military firearms are intentionally made with "generous" chambers and min size (or slightly under) ammo, to promote chambering under combat conditions. And, remember for the military, it only has to go into and come out of the chamber ONCE.

As to .308 bullets in .311-.312" barrels? Some seem to do well enough accuracy wise, others, do not. Doesn't seem to be any apparent reliable predictor(s) only test shooting tells you if your rifle will be happy with .308" or not.
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Old April 12, 2021, 07:02 PM   #25
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Well, you can buy rifle barrels for Type 99 Arisaka rifles on GunBroker form people who have taken them apart to sell the parts. You can buy barrels and barreled actions. My understanding is that it is impossible from a practical standpoint to re-barrel one of these rifles even if you have the spare barrel off of some other T99 rifle (e.g., by buying one on GunBroker, etc).

If you want accuracy, your .312 bullets will likely be more accurate than the .308 bullets, but as someone else said above, sometimes the .308s will work fine in individual T99 rifles and you just have to try it. Good work getting the bullets and brass. For powders, I use I-4064 and I-4895 and they work great. 3031 is problematic, partic in cold weather and with brass that is not once-fired in that chamber. I'd avoid 3031 unless you can not find any other powder. You can use H-335, though people say it is not as accurate. You can use the 4350's too. People say that 4064 acts like a slow powder in large cases/loads and acts like a faster powder in smaller cases/loads. It works great for the 7.7x58 Japanese.
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