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Old August 31, 2008, 09:26 PM   #26
trigger45
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my .243 has seen over 1000 rnds no problem.
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5.56x45, .243win, .308win,8x57mm, 9x19mm,.45acp, .357mag,9x18mm .380acp, .410, .50bp, 12ga.
I would like to see a modern 7x57and 8x57 in my safe.
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Old August 31, 2008, 10:09 PM   #27
BusGunner007
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I love Remington rifles...

...especially the 700.
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Old August 31, 2008, 10:13 PM   #28
DEMOLITION MAN
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Ditto here!
Never heard of any problems. My father and uncle had 721's early fifties. My 700's have never had any problems. Sounds like a Remington hater.
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Old September 1, 2008, 06:00 PM   #29
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Your friend is right, and wrong at the same time

The ejector of a Remington 700 is a time proven design, a spring loaded plunger, and is in use in general form on a few dozen rifle designs. So, on that, he is wrong. "The extractor is the weak link in the 700 design", on that he is right, but only in the sense that there is a "weak link" in every chain.

You can break a Remington 700 (or similar) extractor, with over pressure cases getting stuck in the chamber, true. It does not engage as much of the case rim as a Mauser claw type, true. But it works well enough for millions of hunters and shooters, even if it is not the recommended ideal for a dangerous game rifle (the claw is), it has been a satisfactory design for generations.

Quote:
I suspect your "friend" may be of the impression that extractors on bolt actions should chuck the brass far and wide relatively regardless of the velocity with which you work the bolt - there are some rifles that do just that. The Remington 700 extractor design is entirely dependent on how quickly you shuck that bolt - you can toss brass far and wide if you so choose, but if you're a handloader or just prefer to be more responsible about your brass, you can take it easy on the pull and keep much better control of your empty casings.
This post is not entirely accurate. The Remington 700 ejector is a spring loaded plunger, and the force it applies to the base of the case is constant. How far the brass lands away from the rifle is slightly influenced by how fast you work the bolt, but not to the extent it is influenced by the bolt speed of a rifle with a standing ejector like the Mauser 98. With the Mauser system, the harder you work the bolt back the more force is applied to the case, ejecting it further. Working the bolt very softly can result in the case just barely falling out of the action, or maybe not even ejecting at all. With the remington design, there is always the same amount of force ejecting the brass, working the bolt slowly still results in the case being flung out of the action as soon as the case mouth clears the front edge of the "ejection port" (action opening). The brass will be flung out a given distance. Working the bolt swiftly adds a small amount of rearward velocity to the ejected case, and causes them to land in a different place, further away.
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Old September 1, 2008, 07:36 PM   #30
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I read a post, and cannot remember where I saw it, but it dealt with a manufacturer who installed Sako type extractors on M700's.

What I read said the actual business owner was out shooting one of his conversions when some overpressure situation happened. The SAKO extractor blew out and put out his eye.

The owner then recalled all the rifles he had worked on and restored the rifles to the original configuration.

I wish I could find the post again.

The M700 bolt face is a solid ring of steel. Leaving it intact is a safety feature.

Anyway, the M700 extractor will wear out. So will the extractor on a push feed M70. When both of these rifle types ruled the match rifle category, you always heard of folks who needed to replace an extractor. I helped replace a M70 push feed extractor on the firing line. These shooters are the sort of folks who fire about 5000 rounds a year through a rifle, and in a couple of barrels, some parts needed replacing.

Heck I had a cocking piece nose break on a pre 64. The gunsmith who replaced it had replaced had replaced post 64 cocking pieces, but he was incredulous that it could happen to a pre 64. Well, it did.

And he wore out the magazine spring and extractor on a pre 64!



Don’t worry about the extractor on a M700. It will last a long time, probably longer than the barrel on your rifle. The M700 is a sound design. The military has used it for years as a sniper rifle without modifying the bolt face.
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Old September 2, 2008, 08:40 AM   #31
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Sounds like you better sell me your m-700 today real cheap and I'll take care of it. The triggers are firm but crisp thats about all the 700 lacks. I replaced my X-Mark pro trigger with a jewell. Now I've got a trigger pull just over a pound and wow, what a shooter.
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Old September 2, 2008, 10:33 AM   #32
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I have been a hunter and match shooter now for over 50 years and here are just a few of my experiences with bolt action rifles.

I have shot national match for many years and I can assure you the short extractors as found on the Remington and post-64 Winchester do fail. The Remington’s by far are the absolute worst.

1. An article about a year ago in one of the gun mags detailed the design changes and problems Remington has had over the years with extractor breakage.

2. Most once a year hunters will probably not have any problems with their Remington 700 if kept clean and oiled. Its only with many rounds of use that the problems soon start as in competition where thousands of rounds are shot per year.

By the way the plunger ejector can rust shut as well. I have seen it happen and it was also detailed in the magazine article I read about a year ago.

3. When shooting large numbers of rounds through the Rem. 700 as in National Match shooting what will happen is that the constant turning of the extractor actually wears it out which can and will cause it to slip of the rim of the case, not so in controlled feed round guns as their extractors do not turn. In all fairness all push feed guns suffer from this problem. This is not a new problem the German army found out the same truths with their push feed 1891 Mauser over 100 years ago so this is not breaking news eligible for prime time news coverage on TV, it is 100 plus year old news. This is why the later developed 1898 Mauser had a non-rotating controlled round feed extractor.

4. If the case sticks in the chamber most Remington extractors made of very cheap stamping just break off, not so with the super expensive quality spring steel controlled feed extractors.

Note: just because you have a rifle with a controlled feed extractor like the latest Model 70 Winchester post 94 check to make sure it is not made out of a casting as this part in the Winchester had a very high failure rate. Replace it with a quality spring steel extractor as was found on the older Pre-64 guns. The Williams company does a thriving business selling quality spring steel extractors to replace the cast ones found on the Winchester post-94 controlled feed guns.

5. THE BOLT HANDLE IS BRAZED ON THE M700 AND ABOSLUTELY WILL FALL OFF IF PULLED ON OR TAPPED ON TOO HARD. EXAMPLE: At our range a fellow had a stuck case in the chamber, he put the rifle on the ground and gave it just a gentle tap with the heal of his foot and as I stood their watching the brazed on bolt handle just fell off. Not a good situation if you had a bear about to eat your head off. SOLUTION: Buy a Mauser with a solid forged one piece bolt or a Pre-64 Winchester not a post 64 as they fail too.

Note: The post-64 Winchester has a pressed on bolt handle and more than one recent gun article (the gun writers only now told the truth because they did not think Winchester would start back up again in business) has told of the handle which was pressed on slipping its moorings and coming off. SOLUTION: Get a pre-64 Winchester, Mauser 98 that have once piece bolts.

5. PUSH FEED ACTIONS WILL GET YOU KILLED: I personally have had this happen when I was young lad and had not as yet mastered rapid fire with the bolt gun. I once had to rapidly cycle my bolt using a push feed action and I short stroked the bolt causing the gun to jam up so tightly I had to pry out two loaded rounds with a long screw driver. If I had been in danger I would have never been able to get my rifle working properly in time to save my life. I might add that the German army experimented with push feed actions in their early 1891 Mauser and found that recruits did exactly the same thing, they short stoked the bolt and jammed the gun up tight. SOLUTION: NEVER EVER HUNT DANGEROUS BIG GAME WITH A PUSH FEED ACTION. NEVER EVER.


6. FEED LIPS: The feed lips of the Remington 700 are part of the stamped sheet metal magazine box, short stroking the bolt can bend them which again puts the gun out of action except as a single shot. SOULUTION: Buy a controlled feed gun that uses an action with milled in feed lips. Note: not all modern controlled round feed guns use the milled in feed lips, most use the stamped sheet metal lips of the magazine box to feed in the cartridge. A very bad design but very cheap and quick to manufacture. SOLUTION: Buy a pre-64 Winchester, 98 Mauser, converted 1903 Springfield or 1917 Enfield sporter.

7.THE TRIGGER: Never ever put a spring kit in a 700's trigger as it will render the gun very dangerous once the pull is set below 3 lbs. Before Remington went to the 3 position safety (they were forced to) many people set their triggers by just adjusting them (no spring kit) below 3 lbs. and when they flipped off the two position safety the gun fired which resulted in more than one lawsuit against Remington, this is why they went to the 3 positions safety. Even with the 3 position safety never set it below 3 lbs. If you want a lighter pull replace the trigger with a quality match grade one, but it will void your warranty.

8. In Viet-Nam when the pre-64 Winchester sniper rifle was replaced with the Remington 700 there was a very high failure rate with this rifle: READ THE BOOKS BY PETER SENICH FOR THE HISTORY OF THIS SNIPER RIFLE. It was found that the trigger of the Remington 700 in Viet-Nam had a very high failure rate as it could not tolerate and dust or dirt unlike the pre-64 Winchester that had an open face trigger that allowed dirt and bunt powder to fall away from it. In the Remington all the crap was trapped inside the stamped sheet metal trigger box with no way to get out knocking the gun out of action.


IN CONCLUSION, IF YOU ARE WEEKEND CASUAL SHOOTER OR A ONCE A YEAR HUNTER YOU WILL PROBABLY NOT HAVE ANY TROUBLE WITH YOUR REMINGTON 700 IF KEPT VERY CLEAN AND OILD, BUT IF YOU USE YOUR GUN HARD FOR MATCH SHOOTING WHERE THOUSANDS OF ROUNDS ARE FIRED OR GO ON A SERIOUS BIG GAME HUNT AFTER DANGEROUS BIG GAME THE REMINGTON 700 IS NOT THE GUN TO USE IF YOU VALUE YOUR LIFE OR ANY OTHER PUSH FEED GUN BY ANY OTHER MANUFACTURER. LETS NOT BEAT UP ON REMINGTON TOO HARD.

I AM NOT JUST BEATING UP ON THE REMINGTON 700 AS MANY OF THE PROBLEMS SITED ABOVE WILL PERTAIN TO QUITE A FEW OTHER MODERN MADE BOLT GUNS, AS MANY ALSO HAVE THE SAME OR SIMILAR PROBLEMS. EXAMPLE: THE POST –64 PUSH FEED WINCESTER HAS VERY WEAK EXTRACTOR THAT FAILED ME JUST LAST WEEKEND BY SLIPPING OF THE RIM OF A BRAND NEW ROUND WHICH IT FAILED TO EXTRACT. I must say though that the Winchester extractor is better than the Remington’s extractor as I have to date never broken a post-64 Winchester push feed extractor but they do slip off and also rapidly wear out under hard use, which again causes them to slip off every time, not just some of the time as when they are new.

Remember bolt guns that are of an original military design like the Mauser, Springfield, Enfield, Mosin, Arisaka, etc. were tested under the most demanding of conditions, this is not true of commercially produced bolt guns that were made with cost saving measures in mind. True, the modern guns work well enough if not used under harsh conditions and not fired with thousands and thousand of rounds but it must be remembered few, if any, of them will stand up to the hard use that originally designed military bolt guns will.

I ask you how many professional and experienced dangerous game guides carry modern push feed guns, not many.
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Old September 2, 2008, 11:31 AM   #33
petru
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For further Reading on the history of Remingtons extractor falures read:

The Magazine "The Rifle"

November-December 2007 Voume 39, Number 6 Issue no. 234

Page 18

"Remington Models 721, 722, and 700 Extractors. by Gil Sengel

The article also details Remington ejector failues.
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Old September 2, 2008, 02:27 PM   #34
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Quote:
Remember bolt guns that are of an original military design like the Mauser, Springfield, Enfield, Mosin, Arisaka, etc. were tested under the most demanding of conditions, this is not true of commercially produced bolt guns that were made with cost saving measures in mind. True, the modern guns work well enough if not used under harsh conditions and not fired with thousands and thousand of rounds but it must be remembered few, if any, of them will stand up to the hard use that originally designed military bolt guns will.
I'm pretty sure that the US Army and Marines have tested the M700 action pretty extensivly. Sure it isn't a main battle field rifle but it is being used as a platform for most Sniper applications in 7.62 NATO. I don't know if they use the Sako extractor on the bolt or not, but it is a basic Remington action.
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Old September 3, 2008, 10:34 AM   #35
chuckscap
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I bought my Rem 700 BDL in 270 in 1973. I've fired over 3000 rounds through it, hunted and killed numerous elk, deer, black bear and finished off a grizzly when guiding. It's never failed, ever. I shoot 150g Noslers at 3000 fps for big game and 90 Sierra HP/BTs for varmints at 3500 fps. No light loads here. It has always shot sub MOA even with factory ammo right out of the box.

I recently handed it down to my younger son and bought a CZ Safari Classic for dangerous game hunting. The CZ is a great buy for a CRF magnum mauser-variant action, but some tweaking was definitely necessary. Not so for my Rem 700, which is still going strong.

enjoy your new rifle,

Chuck
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Old September 3, 2008, 11:09 AM   #36
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Quote:
6. FEED LIPS: The feed lips of the Remington 700 are part of the stamped sheet metal magazine box, short stroking the bolt can bend them which again puts the gun out of action except as a single shot. SOULUTION: Buy a controlled feed gun that uses an action with milled in feed lips.
I would agree that milled in feed lips are far more reliable than those cheap stamp metal boxes found in most rifles.

The thing is, who makes a bolt action with milled in feed lips.?

And I mean modern actions, currently made. Not pre 64's or vintage M98 Mausers.
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Old September 3, 2008, 02:34 PM   #37
petru
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[QUOTI would agree that milled in feed lips are far more reliable than those cheap stamp metal boxes found in most rifles.

The thing is, who makes a bolt action with milled in feed lips.?

And I mean modern actions, currently made. Not pre 64's or vintage M98 Mausers.E][/QUOTE]

You might call Remington (of all people) as they are importing the Yugoslavian Mark X made Mauser actions. Or you might just take a look at one at one of the gun stores to see if they are still milling in the feed lips.

You might call Kimber and Cooper Arms as well. I can't say for sure if they used the milled in feed lips or not but I am sure they would tell you.

I might add if you shop around for gunsmiths and used Mausers it is really not that expensive to re-barrel and re-finish a used sporter Mauser. There are a ton of them out there. As I said before last year I bought a sportsitized shot out Mauser and I had it re-barreled and re-blued and even with the cost of the used rifle I had a total of $600 in it.

I also often run into used Mausers that are like new: Example: The early FN commercial Mausers and the later Browning Stamped guns. You will probably pay a little more than rebuilding a used gun but you get a nice collectors grade gun as well.

I found a like new Montgomery Wards FN Mauser in 3006 with really nice real walnut stock for only $300 at a local gun show.

I found a really nice sportsitized 1903a3 Springfield in 30-06 for only $200 bucks and it was like new.

Let face facts forget the magnum craze as many of these older guns in .270, 30-06, 7x57 and 8x57 will kill anything on the planet.

A fellow I once new years ago survived more than one bear attack in Alaska with nothing more than an original German made K98 military 8x57 Mauser and with the original iron sights.

I just saw a picture on this very forum where a hunter killed a 350 pound wild pig with only a .223. So you can begin to see what a fantasy the magnum calibers really are.

I am not advocating hunting deer with a .223 but a buddy of mine has shot well over 100 of them in the last 35 years out his kitchen window in the back pasture at a measured distance of 225 yards. None ran more than 20 yards before piling up. Again what in the world would anyone want with a magnum for deer hunting.
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Old September 3, 2008, 02:36 PM   #38
petru
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Quote:
would agree that milled in feed lips are far more reliable than those cheap stamp metal boxes found in most rifles.

The thing is, who makes a bolt action with milled in feed lips.?

And I mean modern actions, currently made. Not pre 64's or vintage M98 Mausers.E
You might call Remington (of all people) as they are importing the Yugoslavian Mark X made Mauser actions. Or you might just take a look at one at one of the gun stores to see if they are still milling in the feed lips.

You might call Kimber and Cooper Arms as well. I can't say for sure if they used the milled in feed lips or not but I am sure they would tell you.

I might add if you shop around for gunsmiths and used Mausers it is really not that expensive to re-barrel and re-finish a used sporter Mauser. There are a ton of them out there. As I said before last year I bought a sportsitized shot out Mauser and I had it re-barreled and re-blued and even with the cost of the used rifle I had a total of $600 in it.

I also often run into used Mausers that are like new: Example: The early FN commercial Mausers and the later Browning Stamped guns. You will probably pay a little more than rebuilding a used gun but you get a nice collectors grade gun as well.

I found a like new Montgomery Wards FN Mauser in 3006 with really nice real walnut stock for only $300 at a local gun show.

I found a really nice sportsitized 1903a3 Springfield in 30-06 for only $200 bucks and it was like new.

Let face facts forget the magnum craze as many of these older guns in .270, 30-06, 7x57 and 8x57 will kill anything on the planet.

A fellow I once new years ago survived more than one bear attack in Alaska with nothing more than an original German made K98 military 8x57 Mauser and with the original iron sights.

I just saw a picture on this very forum where a hunter killed a 350 pound wild pig with only a .223. So you can begin to see what a fantasy the magnum calibers really are.

I am not advocating hunting deer with a .223 but a buddy of mine has shot well over 100 of them in the last 35 years out his kitchen window in the back pasture at a measured distance of 225 yards. None ran more than 20 yards before piling up. Again what in the world would anyone want with a magnum for deer hunting.
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