The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 23, 2005, 11:36 PM   #1
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,446
The 4 safety rules reduex

Seems the 4 rules we all know & love have been re-written. Check out the video at the link below & choose broadband or dial up. Video is 4 min. long.

http://www.policeone.com/OfficerSafety/tips/121880/

What do you folks think?
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt. Charlie is offline  
Old December 24, 2005, 12:32 AM   #2
woodland
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2001
Location: western wa.
Posts: 564
It sounds ok to me for LEO, but for non LEO "sporting" firearm use, (like teaching my young sons) I think the original 4 are better.

What did you think?
__________________
"There is no spoon..."
woodland is offline  
Old December 24, 2005, 03:37 AM   #3
BigFunWMU
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 26, 2005
Posts: 304
woodland +1
BigFunWMU is offline  
Old December 24, 2005, 08:56 AM   #4
gfen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2005
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Posts: 817
For those of you who don't feel like watching the video (ie, dialup users), here's yer new rooles:

All guns are loaded until proven otherwise.
Keep muzzle pointed in an appropriate direction.
Keep the finger off the trigger until firing.
Fire when reasonable in view of the circumstances.

Well, its nice to know that #3 met Chief Tim's requirements and wasn't changed to "keep finger off the trigger unless you think they're really bad, then its OK."

I dunno, I think it almost serves to lessen the impact of things when you add disclaimers like, "until proven otherwise." The original statement is much more...authoritve, I guess. Then, I'm not an idiot, so I can understand that "all guns are loaded" isn't exactly a truism, but more in lines as a reminder that even when you don't think its loaded, it might very well be.

Without being construed as police bashing, if this is how they have to dumb down simple things for people then we're in for a serious change in community-police relations, coz anyone who's too stupid to grasp what "be sure of your backstop" really means shouldn't be incharge of my safety with a gun.

I hold out higher hopes for the thin blue line.

gfen, often an optimist.
gfen is offline  
Old December 24, 2005, 11:05 AM   #5
Recon7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2005
Posts: 707
all guns are loaded untill proven otherwise....I ''know'' I cleared it before i put it into the safe last week. it seems this dosen't reinforce behavior like clearing a weapon before you hand it to somebody, and him clearing it once he recieves it. what is the level of proof you need, I like to personally check the condition of my own weapon, and will not take somebody telling me it's clear as proof.
Recon7 is offline  
Old December 24, 2005, 01:15 PM   #6
woodland
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2001
Location: western wa.
Posts: 564
How about this:

All guns are loaded unless the barrel is seperated from the firing mechanism.
__________________
"There is no spoon..."
woodland is offline  
Old December 24, 2005, 02:19 PM   #7
USP45usp
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2000
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 3,427
I've always used rule #1 as: Treat every gun as if it were loaded. That covers the other three rules.

As for the forth, does that pertain to 'civilians' also or is this just an LEO thing?

Not to bait or troll but if the LEO's believe that in the RW (Real World) that it's up to the officer to make the judgement, and an innocent is hurt or God forbid killed, will that hold for the CCW 'civilian' also or will it become a double standard?

As for rule #3, it's good to know that it wasn't changed (keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire). Most of the ND's that I've read about, here and other boards, this rule is the most broken and thus the ND occurs.

Wayne
USP45usp is offline  
Old December 24, 2005, 03:13 PM   #8
Ares45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2, 2005
Posts: 211
The 4 rules of gun safety gone PC.
Ares45 is offline  
Old December 24, 2005, 03:23 PM   #9
molonlabe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Location: MD
Posts: 296
Tell rule 1 to the cadet that took one to the chest by an instructor using a real firearm during training last year. i'll stick with Mr. Coopers versions, thank you.

Thats all I have to say about this.
__________________
The United States Constitution
© 1791. All Rights Reserved.


I Don't want you in here period...Patricia Konie NOLA 2005
molonlabe is offline  
Old December 24, 2005, 04:08 PM   #10
Fremmer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 3,482
I don't like the revised rules.

They are harder to remember. The revisions seem to be based merely on semantics. The revised Rule No. 1 is especially silly.

For example:
Old rule: all guns are always loaded.
Revised rule: all guns are loaded unless proven otherwise.
Huh? I seems to me that the purpose of this rule (regardless of the version) is to make sure that a we consider every gun to be loaded; to never presume that a gun is unloaded; and to get us into the habit of checking a gun to ensure that it is unloaded each time that we possess it. So if you hand Fremmer your pistol, and Fremmer fails to check the gun to ensure that it is unloaded, pulls the trigger, and blows a hole through through the wall, what is the difference between violating the old rule vrs. the new rule? Either way, Fremmer failed to consider the pistol loaded; presumed that the gun was unloaded; and failed to check the pistol himself after you handed it to him to ensure that the pistol was unloaded before he ruined your wall.

Contrary to popular belief, Fremmer is smart enough to realize that the wording of the old version of Rule No. 1 cannot be used as a basis for refusing to clean your Glock.
Fremmer is offline  
Old December 24, 2005, 04:11 PM   #11
Weeg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 7, 2005
Posts: 463
How about rule #5?

Don't be a jack-azz


Weeg is offline  
Old December 24, 2005, 04:56 PM   #12
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,446
Quote:
What did you think?
Me? I think the chief's spent way too much time reading legal briefs .

Seriously, I think it's a slap in the face to cops everywhere. It's saying that most cops aren't able to interpret the original four with a modicum of common sense.
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt. Charlie is offline  
Old December 29, 2005, 03:20 PM   #13
EricN
Member
 
Join Date: October 1, 2004
Posts: 98
As with most of you Im very leery about shooting with just anyone. Out of all my many friends and loved ones I can count the ones Ill shoot with on one hand, ok maybe two. The biggest factor has always been a concious decision to actively abide by the four rules. Sure you can debate the semantics of of each rule but if you dont understand them you have no business handling a firearm at least not with me in the vicinity. The new rule I really dont understand is the first one. What do they want to do point unloaded guns at each other and feel safe?

EricN
EricN is offline  
Old December 29, 2005, 03:38 PM   #14
choochboost
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2005
Location: orange county, ca
Posts: 610
Loaded until proven otherwise? One person's definition of "proven" is not another's. I have seen guys drop the mag and say the gun was unloaded, forgetting to rack the slide and clear the chamber. To them, they had "proven" it was unloaded by simply removing the mag. The old rule #1 will help to address their mistake as they consider it still loaded...which it was!
choochboost is offline  
Old December 29, 2005, 03:57 PM   #15
ReadyOnTheRight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2002
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 377
I DO like "Treat all guns as if they are loaded" because to some people, the original "All Guns Are Loaded" makes them think they are supposed to keep their gun loaded.

Believe me, I've had arguments. Mostly with very safe shooters who just haven't heard of Jeff Cooper.

This "new" version seems WAY too toned down for the importance of the topic. There are few more ambiguous, PC words than "appropriate".

And what happen to not pointing at anything you are not willing to destroy?

I didn't watch the video, but is it really that hard to point the gun downrange or at the sky or the ground when not aiming at a target?

The more I look at these, the more I dislike them. If they want to make their own rules, they should make more than four and let Jeff Cooper's 4 Rules stand as they are.
__________________
"Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys." -Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle-
ReadyOnTheRight is offline  
Old December 29, 2005, 10:05 PM   #16
Russ538
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 18, 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 228
I'm just going to stick with the original 4 rules. I don't like the modified versions.
Russ538 is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 09:20 AM   #17
CrackerJim
Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2005
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 39
My stepfather, who taught me to shoot as a kid, was a career marine. His method on "is it loaded?" was this: he would check the weapon (which I could see him do) and hand it to me. I would then disregard the fact that I saw him check and check it myself. His attitude was that it doesn't matter what anyone says or did. You check the weapon yourself.

I'm teaching that to my sons.

Jim
CrackerJim is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 01:19 PM   #18
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,446
Quote:
My stepfather, who taught me to shoot as a kid, was a career marine. His method on "is it loaded?" was this: he would check the weapon (which I could see him do) and hand it to me. I would then disregard the fact that I saw him check and check it myself. His attitude was that it doesn't matter what anyone says or did. You check the weapon yourself.
Good advice, but to add to it, whenever I hand off a weapon to someone, I do it with the slide locked back or the cylinder open.
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt. Charlie is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 01:36 PM   #19
smince
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
Quote:
I DO like "Treat all guns as if they are loaded" because to some people, the original "All Guns Are Loaded" makes them think they are supposed to keep their gun loaded.
I knew of a person who almost had a stroke when they read the "All Guns are Always Loaded!"(the way it is actually written) rule and thought that it meant for them to truely be loaded all the time.

I think that adding "treat" and "as if" waters down the force of the original statement.

1. ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED!
2. NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY!
3. KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON TARGET!
4.BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET!

Whats better than these?
smince is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 03:33 PM   #20
USP45usp
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2000
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 3,427
Quote:
whenever I hand off a weapon to someone, I do it with the slide locked back or the cylinder open.
Yuppers!

I put myself into checking the chamber/cylinder three times. Yes, it is OCD (I do the same when I check for ALL safety factors, sometimes OCD can come in for good).

And even when I know it's not loaded, I treat it as it is. Muzzle in safe directions, finger off the trigger, knowing my "dry fire" (if safe to do so with firearm, won't hurt it), that I know my target and what is behind it.

You can say that I'm almost "mental" about the 4 rules. That maybe I pay attention to and abide with them like a religion.

I do. Just like I have the same caution and attention when using tools, power or not.

I've seen too many arms missing, feet crushed, hands (including mine) cut so deep that they required medical help, and chainsaw kickbacks that I know it takes only a split second for all this to happen.

Yet if you just follow the rules, your chances of this happening decline about 100%.

Wayne
USP45usp is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 03:34 PM   #21
USP45usp
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2000
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 3,427
Quote:
Whats better than these?
Just one thing :

Quote:
4.BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET!
And what is behind it.

Wayne
USP45usp is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 03:40 PM   #22
smince
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
Quote:
Just like I have the same caution and attention when using tools, power or not.
I work around hydraulic presses, drills, and metal saws all day. I always tell the "newbies" to think about where their hands are before they press a button or step on a pedal. Had a guy(23 years old) 20' from me lose three fingers and half his right hand last year from not paying attention.
smince is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07262 seconds with 8 queries