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Old December 17, 2005, 02:46 PM   #26
PressCheck
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Hold it with two hands, and hold it as you would a hammer (thumbs down). Keep your finger out the trigger guard.
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Old December 17, 2005, 09:29 PM   #27
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Did you sleep thru the safety course? Keep your d@mn finger OFF the trigger. I'll sleep better tonight knowing you don't live in my neighborhood.
Either change your grip or change your gun but your pics are more of an example of what NOT to do with a gun.
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Old December 18, 2005, 12:14 AM   #28
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Never put your finger on the trigger unless you are ready to shoot what it is pointed at

assume a gun is always loaded...so dont point any weapon at anything unless you willing to destroy or kill it.
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Old December 18, 2005, 02:20 AM   #29
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Here is good link! http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/...y_miculek.html
Please follow the Four Rules!
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Old December 18, 2005, 04:03 AM   #30
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Looks like you are purposely trying to create a hazard. With your finger on the frame or triggerguard you still can use the same finger pressure as if the finger was on the trigger and have the same amount of control. Your other fingers are securing the gripframe. It's no different than the semi-auto. Riding your hand up the gripframe like pictured does nothing except take your hand out of the firing grip. You don't have to block the hammer if your finger is off the trigger. Even though you use a holster that has the triggerguard cut out you can still draw the revolver without putting your finger in the triggerguard. Are you trying to put your finger through the leather of a holster that has the triggerguard covered?
It sounds like you need to retake that class as you obviously have missed some very basic elements and now creating your own conclusions which seem to have no basis.
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Old December 19, 2005, 09:33 PM   #31
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I'm not going to try to explain in text what really needs to be shown and practiced, but it's clear you have NO IDEA what you are doing. Based on the gun handling you've shown I wouldn't think you're save with a revolver OR an auto.

Go pony up for another class, and pay attention this time. Don't let the instructor move on until you get this down. Right now you are NOT safe wit a firearm.
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Old December 19, 2005, 10:38 PM   #32
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After reviewing again the pictures, I will have to agree with some of the others that your finger in the trigger guard really creeps me out on some level.

Please don't take the advise given wrongly, the members aren't attacking you but your gun handling as shown.

We make fun of each other when you read about people having their "trigger finger" outside the guards of simple tools such as drills, saws, etc.. That they find themselves with their trigger finger extended until ready to drill/saw/etc..

But deep down we all know that it seems "funny" but are happy and thrilled that our muscle memory has made that a constent in our lives with any tool with a trigger is concerned.

And I agree.

Even if it doesn't "feel right" or you think that you have excessive play in the retention of the gun, it's always good policy to keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. I can understand where you are coming from and what you are saying, I used to think the same thing, but the finger inside the trigger guard, on the trigger, actually gives me the chills.

Maybe I've programmed myself to actually feel ill when I do that or others do that, I don't know. Maybe it's a good thing, maybe it isn't (to feel that way). But for myself, I find that keeping my finger off the trigger to be a good thing, and I expect those around me to do the same, "unloaded gun" or not.

Just my .02

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Old December 19, 2005, 11:29 PM   #33
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I place my finger on the front of the trigger guard where my support index finger would go if I was shooting a semi-auto. It looks like you have long enough fingers to do this. I am still trying to figure out why you don't even have your trigger finger against the revolver in some fashion in your "why this doesn't work" photos.

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Old December 19, 2005, 11:50 PM   #34
Doug.38PR
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Quote:
I can understand where you are coming from and what you are saying, I used to think the same thing, but the finger inside the trigger guard, on the trigger, actually gives me the chills.

Maybe I've programmed myself to actually feel ill when I do that or others do that, I don't know. Maybe it's a good thing, maybe it isn't (to feel that way). But for myself, I find that keeping my finger off the trigger to be a good thing, and I expect those around me to do the same, "unloaded gun" or not
Oh I take no offense personally to any of these comments.

Well your first comment raises a good point. Part of this has to do with confidence. I am confident that I can handle a A REVOLVER (not auto) with finger in the guard and having in one of the positions shown in the pictures. I am confident it is safe and it does not give me the chills.
If you, or anyone else doesn't feel safe (or gives you the chills) doing it then by all means DON'T.
If someone doesn't feel safe carrying a gun at all, then I would recommend they DON'T until they are confident.
There are people out there (MANY People given the state of our culture) that feel none of us are safe because we carry or even own guns. They think that, as if by magic, only police are safe carrying guns. (I've heard, don't have the stats in front of me, that more accidents happen with individual LEOs per capita than citizen gun owners. A former supervisor of mine about 8 years ago told me that he witnessed to his horror some Sheriff Deputies in Galveston County courthouse where they have all the metal detectors and X ray junk set up kidding around with some landmen that frequently came through every day that they were friendly with. One of the deputies took out his LOADED gun from his duty holster and slipped it in one of the landmen's briefcases and put it through the X ray deal and told the landman jokingly that he caught him with a gun in his case. A LEO fooling around with a loaded gun. This is not a slam against LEOs but just illustrates that anyone can be unsafe with a gun but that does not mean that everyone, LEOs included, actually is.)
Many posters on this, and past threads, have made comments and some seem to get a little excited when they see any picture with my finger on the trigger. They think that alone is unsafe and violates the safety rules. But think about this. How many in here can honestly tell me they NEVER EVER EVER EVER have put their finger on the trigger of their gun apart from when it was pointed down range loaded or at a Bad Guy loaded? Most people, when they buy a gun in the store or at a show like to see how good the action is. They generally dryfire the gun a few times or test the action with their fingers on all six chambers. They take aim (not at people) and test it right there in the store or show. I do this and have seen others do this ALL THE TIME at shows and stores and NEVER EVER has anyone said anything or looked the least bit uncomfortable. Why? Because both the dealer and then myself check to make sure the gun is unloaded. (I do this all the time, anytime I pick up one of my guns, I don't care if I set it down on a table cleaning it and walk out to get something and walk back in. I open the cylinder and not only check it with my eye but I hit the ejector rod a few times, where the eye can decieve you the ejector rod can't. It has become a healthy habit.) Also, there is a reason there is a market for snapcaps. Nobody buys snapcaps to take down to the range and snap at the target. I practice my DA all the time with snapcaps or everynow and then dryfiring. I once had a conversation with a Colt repair store about practicing at home my firing with
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Old December 20, 2005, 01:38 AM   #35
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I don't think confidence is the word, it seems like everyone here is telling you its a false sense of security with something that is inherently dangerous. I think your LEO example is flawed, there was no finger on the trigger or object in the trigger guard, was there a safety mechanism on the gun that could have prevented it from being fired? Either way, I'd agree its not a 100% "safe" thing for the LEO to do, but that doesn't justify it as being ok. I hear an "if your friends jumped off the bridge" story coming... Other people may do similar things, but they recognize them for what they are, mistakes, and correct them accordingly. I fail to see the relevance of your other arguments on snapcaps, dryfiring, etc.

Are you saying that you only use those hand positions when you know the gun is not loaded? the impression i got (and others apparently) is that you handle the gun that way all the time, loaded or not. even if its only when unloaded, whats to prevent you from learning those movements and subconciously bringing them into your "loaded" routines and/or movements.

For your pictured positions, whats to prevent you from slipping from there during a fall or some other unanticipated movement? You're absolutely relying on your hand/thumb to be blocking the hammer, and any movement away from that causes a serious problem.

pic 1, wouldnt pulling the trigger apply a torque to the gun to rotate it away from the webbing of your hand, which you need to prevent the discharge? pic 2, your thumb looks unnaturally bent to me, and could the hammer slip underneath it? pic 3, looks like you're relying on the fleshy part of your palm to prevent the hammer from moving, I would think the force from even a short fall could push the hammer past that.

Even so, why practice a hand position that could be completely wrong on another handgun? (i.e., anything without an exposed hammer) Perhaps the instructor wasn't clear about a point on the triggerguard, but as IZinterrogator posted, whats wrong with putting your finger around the outside of the trigger guard, or even along side it but above it? anything but in the guard ready to pull the trigger.
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Old December 20, 2005, 02:31 AM   #36
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Doug ---

For god's sake stop trying to re-invent the dam wheel, many, many others have mastered the art of handeling a revolver WITHOUT putting their finger on the trigger, CHL class is a little like a basic drivers test --- it's by nature basic, and if you really want to lean guncraft go to gunsite, front sight, thunder ranch or any other good school and they will teach you if you are willing to learn.

BTW -- In your reasoning and your explanation you have compleatly and utterly failed to apreciate why we are all taught to keep the finger off the trigger --- it's because under stress our body can do some strange things, like oh say pull a trigger when we don't want to --- having the finger off the trigger is step one in conditioning to make rapid shoot / no shoot decesions, if you are walking around with your finger on the trigger you are already complealty in violation of this principle and are an accident waiting to happen --- don't believe me??? --- load up a revolver with some primed brass or simulation rounds and have people of any skill level go through stress shot house scenarios holding a revolver as you suggest --- then provide some startaling / non-shoot stimulus --- and see how many pops you hear --- I don't care where the web of you hand is in relation to the hammer with your finger on the trigger if your finger squeezes you hand will by reflex or volition make it positon it's self so the gun can fire.
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Old December 20, 2005, 03:08 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by orionengnr
but I've noticed in the last few years, even out in the garage when I handle my Makita or my pneumatic air wrench...my index finger is pointed straight forward.
Hell, I've been caught doing it with soda cans.
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Old December 20, 2005, 02:52 PM   #38
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the impression i got (and others apparently) is that you handle the gun that way all the time, loaded or not. even if its only when unloaded, whats to prevent you from learning those movements and subconciously bringing them into your "loaded" routines and/or movements.

For your pictured positions, whats to prevent you from slipping from there during a fall or some other unanticipated movement? You're absolutely relying on your hand/thumb to be blocking the hammer, and any movement away from that causes a serious problem.
If that has been yours, and others, impression then there has been a misunderstanding I DO NOT go around with the gun loaded handling it in that way all the time. Typically I remove the revolver from the holster and transport it (from shoulder holster to hip holster for instance if I am changing my attire) by gripping all four fingers and my thumb around the frame of the gun with my middle and ring finger holding around the outside of the trigger guard (the finger is never in the trigger guard in these cases and there is a firm grip on the gun.)

I handle the gun with my finger on the trigger when snapcapping with the gun unloaded (unloaded with bullets real ammo that is)
The only time I ever have or would handle the gun in the way seen in these pictures loaded is if I need to pull the gun out of my holster to use it. If I hear something go bump outside or need to go into my dark house at night finding it in a suspicious manner (open back door and things of that sort.) I hold the gun in any one of the seen manners, if I suspect I might have to shoot I point the gun forward in firing position with my thumb pushing against the hammer. Or I hold the gun upward or downward when walking around investigation my houses interior or exterior.
My reasons for not using the index finger are because I don't feel the gun is secure in my hand that way. I want that gun secure in my grip, not dropping or flopping from my grip for whatever reason. Also, without the support of my finger in the guard, it is easier for someone to grab it and pull it out of my hands in an instant.
I can reasonably say that I am sure it will not go off if I trip. 1) there is a lot of fairly hard pull between the hammer going back and snapping forward 2) first and foremost part of my thumb or hand will be holding off the hammer. This is not something I dreamed up. This is something I've practiced with the gun UNLOADED and I am confident is is safe.
No safety on any gun, mechanical or mental, is absolute. Mechanical Safeties have been known to fail. "This Glock is the safest gun in the world, I could load one in the chamber, throw it against the wall and it won't go off." I disagree, any safety can fail. Some of the most safety concious people in the world have probably had gun accidents. Some of the safest drivers in the world have had accidents or caused accidents by trying to be too safe (for instance slow drivers claiming to be safe driving in the left passing lane have caused wrecks from people struggling to get around them.) By using the indexing method on revolver you only have the support of your middle, ring and pinky finger. In my method you have the support of all four fingers and thumb in some way or another on your gun
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Old December 20, 2005, 09:07 PM   #39
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<<The only time I ever have or would handle the gun in the way seen in these pictures loaded is if I need to pull the gun out of my holster to use it. If I hear something go bump outside or need to go into my dark house at night finding it in a suspicious manner (open back door and things of that sort.) >>

Man, what people are trying to tell you is that, in the situation you describe above, this is the WORST time to have your finger on the trigger. When you MIGHT have to shoot is when it is most vital that your finger be OFF the trigger. If you get suprised by a cat, or neighbor kid, or anything and flinch... BANG! Shooting should be a deliberate act, requiring concious thought... which is why you have to decide to put your finger on the trigger to shoot.

Also, if you walk around with your finger inside the trigger guard and bump into someting in the dark, or slip and fall... BANG!

There are many very experienced gun people here telling you that your method of gun handling is going to get you or someone else killed.

Please listen.
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Old December 20, 2005, 09:59 PM   #40
stratus
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Doug,

Judging from the pics, I think if you pressed your index finger to the frame just under the cylinder, you would have an easier time holding the revolver steady.
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Old December 20, 2005, 10:56 PM   #41
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From what I'm seeing here is your grips are too small for your hands. Try finding some larger so your wrist doesn't look so twisted. Your fingertips shouldn't be toucking the backstrap of the gun. By all means, keep your boogerhook off the bang switch. (Someone here used that in their sig - I like it)

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Old December 21, 2005, 12:02 AM   #42
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The whole "KEEP YOUR FINGER OUTTA THERE" thing is important, and here is another reason that hasn't been mentioned yet. Besides the whole immediate BANG thing..

It is muscle memory, and habits. If you handle the gun that way, and get used to handling it that way, loaded or not, you are likely to handle it in that fashion under stress.

Also, if you were at the same range I go to and you were holding your gun with your finger on the trigger, and not pointed at a target, LOADED OR NOT; you would be asked to leave. By me, the RSO on duty, and the management (LEOs too if you were cranky).

If you feel that you can control an auto without your finger on the trigger, like you said earlier, get rid of this revolver and get an auto. If you cannot control this revolver without your finger on the trigger, GET RID OF IT, period. No good can come from this situation.

As to how hard you have to pull the hammer to make it trip, if it were to fall off your belt and land on the trigger, it would go off. So if it is at chest height, with your finger in the trigger, and you fall and that hand hits the ground (thats what happens when you fall, people tend to use their hands to break falls) the gun will probably go off.

Yep, the chances are probably pretty small.

Yep, you probably feel pretty safe.

I hope we never cross paths, particularly if you continue this unsafe practice. If we do, and your gun is out, but not pointed at me, you may get a whoopin, if it is pointed at me, you will get shot. (finger on trigger = direct threat to my life)

Stay outta the northlands

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Old December 21, 2005, 12:06 AM   #43
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Doug,
It seems you have convinced yourself that your gunhandling is safe. What I would like to know is how you can control a semi-auto with 3 fingers and the thumb on the gripframe, but those same 3 fingers and thumb can't control a revolver? Also how do you practice tripping? Tripping is a surprised event and each one is dynamic. We all have a grab reflex and the reflex to try and catch yourself with your hands when falling.
Hopefully one day you will understand what people are trying to tell you here, but until then I hope you don't injure yourself or someone else with your style of gunhandling as you ignore the 4 basic safe gun handling rules.
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Old December 21, 2005, 12:46 AM   #44
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In my method you have the support of all four fingers and thumb in some way or another on your gun
True, but one of those fingers is inside the trigger guard when you are not prepared to fire.
Which is the one thing that all NDs have in common
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Old December 21, 2005, 02:33 AM   #45
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So we all agree that keeping the finger on the trigger before being prepared to fire is about as much of a no-no as tossing your gun into a vat of salt water, then defecating in the water?

Both very bad ideas, albeit for different reasons...
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Old December 21, 2005, 02:36 AM   #46
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tossing your gun into a vat of salt water, then defecating in the water?
Well if its my 870 Marine Magnum I think it would be OK. Just to be sure I'd better try it.
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Old December 21, 2005, 03:07 AM   #47
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tossing your gun into a vat of salt water, then defecating in the water?
I hear that that's a standard test for Glocks
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Old December 21, 2005, 10:26 AM   #48
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Glock testing?

I thought it was Glock manufacturing....
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Old December 21, 2005, 10:56 AM   #49
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Well your first comment raises a good point. Part of this has to do with confidence. I am confident that I can handle a A REVOLVER (not auto) with finger in the guard and having in one of the positions shown in the pictures. I am confident it is safe and it does not give me the chills.
If you, or anyone else doesn't feel safe (or gives you the chills) doing it then by all means DON'T.
If someone doesn't feel safe carrying a gun at all, then I would recommend they DON'T until they are confident.
Doug, I was born and raise with guns and I never put my finger in the trigger guard, nor would I point a weapon loaded or unloaded at a person I did not intend to shoot. I learned this from a very early age, since my dad was in the military before I was born, so its a habit. Your like my wife, who learned it later in life. My Father in Law is a cop and did not become a cop until my wife was in grade school, so she didn't really get into firearm until she was a teenager. Unlike a 6 year old , a teenager or an adult will filter what is being taught to them and apply it to their own logic. If they think something is dumb they will ignore it. Your ignoring the Keep your finger out of the trigger guard rule, because you think its dumb and doesn't apply to you somehow. You give confidence as an example, and my wife, when we were dating, would confidently grab my father in law's service revolver with her finger in the trigger guard and sweeps the entire room (and my head) with the loaded barrel, when she put the gun away for her dad, all the while wondering why I'm ducking, dodging and yelling. Everyone confidently handles their weapon until an accidental discharge happens. The AD I witnessed that wounded 3 people was because the guy who was handling a Glock, had his finger on the trigger.

Doug just try for us....stay safe...and have a happy holiday.
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Old December 21, 2005, 11:15 AM   #50
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How do I handle a revolver as opposed to an autoloader? The same exact way. NO DIFFERENCE. Trigger finger outside of the trigger guard alongside of the frame or pressing on the side of the trigger guard and pointing along the barrel axis until I've to the gun pointed downrange at the intended target; the thumb goes where the thumb goes - down, gripping the grip. Partly this is about safety, partly this is about muscle memory -- I want to handle both revolvers and autoloaders as similarly as possible to help eliminate confusion & fumbling around when emergency weapon use is called for.
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