The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 30, 2005, 10:18 AM   #1
Mark54g
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,265
Question about RULE 1

I had a discussion with a friend of mine about guns and safety in general. He believes that rule 1 applies in ANY condition of the firearm.
I politely tried to explain that there is little need to feel that the weapon is loaded after I have disassembled it and am HANDLING it in pieces (as in the barrel is off, the magazine is dropped, etc. He believes the frame (or any part with a trigger) should be believed to be loaded and not pointed at anything that you are not willing to destroy. While I would not point it at a person or animal (for fear of scaring them or developing bad habits), I think its not really relevant.
I understand that we should excersize as much care as possible, but isn't this taking things too far?


Any thoughts?
Mark54g is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 10:31 AM   #2
azredhawk44
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 6,465
Well, for example my Glock:

When the slide is off the frame, it still could technically be made to shoot. It would be really hard, but possible if a cartridge was in there.

With the barrel removed along with the recoil spring, I don't consider it a gun anymore. Any of these pieces can be held any way I want while cleaning.

Once it is back together, though, it is once again a gun even if not fully assembled.

My revolvers are always loaded. Even when they aren't. But, I have never taken one of them down with the cylinder off the frame and trigger assembly off.

My rule is if a firing pin exists behind a firing chamber, the gun could be loaded.
azredhawk44 is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 10:31 AM   #3
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,568
Mark, . . . you touched on the answer with "developing bad habits".

Conscientiously, . . . purposely, . . . adamantly refusing to let your guard down at any time: will serve you well handling firearms.

ALL, . . . ALL AD's can be traced back to someone, . . . somewhere, . . . letting down the vigilance. Keep it to the top, . . . you'll stay safer.

Just my $.02, . . . but backed up by all my instructors for the last 40+ years.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 10:36 AM   #4
Mark54g
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,265
Ok, it seems its not cut and dry. I do agree with AZ, though in that when there is nothing to support a round, it is not really a gun anymore (regardless of what the BATF says). I don't make it a habit to be unduly irresponsible with it, but if I am handling a frame while cleaning, and the barrel is in a small box sitting next to me, along with the magazine, there is little likelyhood of discharge.

When the barrel is on (regardless of magazine or ammo) it is loaded and treated as such.
Mark54g is offline  
Old December 31, 2005, 10:53 AM   #5
DavidJBlythe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2005
Location: USMC, Centcom
Posts: 214
When you take it down to pieces its not a functioning weapon anymore, really no different than a box of nuts and bots. Commandments dont apply to nuts and bolts.
DavidJBlythe is offline  
Old January 1, 2006, 01:46 AM   #6
Shawn Dodson
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 16, 1998
Location: Titusville, FL, USA
Posts: 1,030
Rule 1A: "All gun parts are always loaded."

In training, I've pointed real guns at lots of people and had lots of people point real guns at me.

On patrol, I've pointed real guns at lots of bad guys but I can't say for certain whether or not a bad guy has ever really pointed a gun at me.
Shawn Dodson is offline  
Old January 1, 2006, 02:40 AM   #7
RioShooter
Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 2005
Location: Brownsville, Texas
Posts: 46
Muzzle!!!

When I'm cleaning my disassembled auto (including firing pin) I still consciously keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

I don't ever want to feel comfortable looking down the muzzle of a gun,

even when I'm 100% sure that it can't fire.

Chuck
RioShooter is offline  
Old January 1, 2006, 03:11 AM   #8
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
Here's what Cooper, the man who penned the rules had to say:
Quote:
RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

There are no exceptions. Do not pretend that this is true. Some people and organizations take this rule and weaken it; e.g. "Treat all guns as if they were loaded." Unfortunately, the "as if" compromises the directness of the statement by implying that they are unloaded, but we will treat them as though they are loaded. No good! Safety rules must be worded forcefully so that they are never treated lightly or reduced to partial compliance.

All guns are always loaded - period!

This must be your mind-set. If someone hands you a firearm and says, "Don't worry, it's not loaded," you do not dare believe him. You need not be impolite, but check it yourself. Remember, there are no accidents, only negligent acts. Check it. Do not let yourself fall prey to a situation where you might feel compelled to squeal, "I didn't know it was loaded!"
I thought I might could find a definitive answer there, but alas, it is absent.
except.........
Quote:
Do not let yourself fall prey to a situation where you might feel compelled to squeal, "I didn't know it was loaded!"
Do not let yourself fall prey to a situation where you might feel compelled to squeal, "I didn't know it could still shoot!" I think that is the answer........
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old January 1, 2006, 06:42 AM   #9
The British Soldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2005
Location: England...that green and pleasasnt land.
Posts: 295
Chill Out!

Can everyone take a deep breath and take one of the following:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...1&d=1136115413
Attached Images
File Type: jpg chill pill.jpg (10.7 KB, 63 views)
__________________
Mike

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains
And the women come out to cut up what remains
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

Rudyard Kipling.
The British Soldier is offline  
Old January 1, 2006, 08:06 AM   #10
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,882
rules rule

...and even if I just had checked 5 times that the gun was empty, I still get a very bad feeling if anybody comes in line with the barrel. I always apply rule #1 unless i only have the barrel in hand, fully dissalembled gun...
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old January 1, 2006, 10:13 AM   #11
DavidJBlythe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2005
Location: USMC, Centcom
Posts: 214
if its in pieces on the table, I'm not worried. Once I begin to reassemble, the safety switch comes back on. I think to myself, "Ok, I'm now putting a weapon back together." When I'm alll done, the muzzle is facing a safe direction.
DavidJBlythe is offline  
Old January 1, 2006, 02:13 PM   #12
Mark54g
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,265
David,

That is how I handle the situation. I seriously doubt that having a frame is going to cause a problem. It just FEELS different to me. I try and keep myself VERY vigilant to not point the gun at anything I think would be a danger. When handling, I tend to point to the floor (especially the corner to an outside wall, so that in case it penetrates it will go into the dirt and not into someone or something important). When the barrel is put back on, its a whole 'nother ballgame.
Mark54g is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.09412 seconds with 11 queries