Need help evaluating a Mauser 98

Bassassassin · July 17, 2015, 03:49 PM

Hey everyone, new user here. Hope I am doing this right. Recently I inherited a gun which I know nothing about. What I do know: it is 98 Oberndorf sporter chambered in 375 H&H. It is engraved with Classic German oak leaves and acorns on the top and a lion scene on the floor plate. I was told by an "expert" that it was an inferior engraving job. After extensive research, I think this may be work of Fugger although it is not signed. That would maybe indicate that the gun is aGriffin and Howe but it doesn't seem to be. It has two serial numbers, the Mauser # and a four digit number. John Rigby Co. ? To add another twist the gun is sporting a nicely checkered Walter Abe stock. Any thoughts on the provenance or value of this weapon would be greatly appreciated. Also, it has the crown B and crown U marks.[AT[ATTACH]image.jpg

Bassassassin · July 17, 2015, 03:58 PM

Apparently most of my photos are too large. I will have to edit them to post.

mapsjanhere · July 17, 2015, 04:49 PM

As the gun has German proof marks it should have a date on it too, probably under the barrel. As the 375 H&H doesn't fit into a standard Mauser action, you have a magnum system that adds considerably to the value. The engraving on the one picture truly is not of great quality, but not bad enough to detract from the overall value. The question is how much is left of the German original, the stock doesn't look like a German pre WWII wood for example. There's also the question of the scope mount, a lot of German guns had custom fit mounts that, if lost, are hard to replace. First shot at value would be $1500 - 2000, pending more details.

Bassassassin · July 17, 2015, 05:06 PM

The stock is from Walter S Abe of LA, a somewhat famous custom gun builder.

Bassassassin · July 17, 2015, 05:27 PM

image.jpg image.jpgLet me try again with the photos.

mapsjanhere · July 17, 2015, 06:12 PM

The problem is simply that to reach a higher value you have to appeal to collectors, and a collector of German pre-war rifles will want the original stock. So that limits you to Abe collectors, but with the German looking engraving and scope mount I doubt he did a lot of work with it other than the stock. Guns are weird that way, even what other might think of as luxury upgrades turns off collectors.

James K · July 17, 2015, 08:06 PM

No way to be sure of that rifle's sporter origin, but after the end of WWII, German gunsmiths, like the rest of the country, were pretty well broke. So they sold their guns and gunsmith services to the only people around with hard currency - American GI's.

The result was some very fine "sporterizing" of rifles the Americans had captured from the Germans. Later, the PX's got into the act and organized the sporterizing and engraving business.. The early engraving was only so-so; it was called "carton of cigarettes" engraving because that was what it cost. Later, the work was often done by very fine workmen and (assuming German engraving is to your taste) some beautiful rifles were produced.

Jim

Slamfire · July 17, 2015, 08:18 PM

Quote:

No way to be sure of that rifle's sporter origin, but after the end of WWII, German gunsmiths, like the rest of the country, were pretty well broke. So they sold their guns and gunsmith services to the only people around with hard currency - American GI's.

I can confirm that. A neighbor, a WW2 vet, was in Austria after the war. He had a Sporter built around a Mauser action by an Austrian gunsmith. The stock was unfortunately a military stock greatly thinned by the gunsmith. It cracked, either in the tang, or behind the recoil lug, I forget exactly. The gunsmith removed so much wood in lightening that the stock could not take the recoil without splitting. The metal work was nice, scope mounts, bluing, bolt handle modified to a spoon.

mapsjanhere · July 17, 2015, 09:32 PM

The proof marks say it's a pre-war gun, made before the change to the nazi-marks in 39. As a German engraver would have never blued the gun, I'm pretty sure it's a "liberated" gun that made its way to the US and got reworked later on. The poor engraving is probably due to excessive polishing before blueing, to go with the US style lacquered stock. I don't think a German gun smith committed this.

Jimro · July 18, 2015, 03:51 AM

The baseline for a used 375 H&H Mauser is in the 750 to 800 dollar range for a plane jane MarkX.

I'd say what you have is worth more, but appraising custom rifles is not my line of work. The engraving looks a lot like what you would see done on a rifle for someone who was a serious hunter, without a lot of the fragile filigree work that would get really banged up in the field. A lot of older Shutzen rifles have similar work as they were expected to be shot more than admired. I happen to like the "rustic" style.

Anyways it's a fine rifle, and if I were going to sell I'd put 1,300 on the tag and see if someone bites. That's just my opinion though.

Jimro

James K · July 18, 2015, 03:36 PM

Hi, mapsjanhere,

Where are you seeing proof marks and the other information? The OP said it is an Oberndorf rifle which, if correct, would rule out its being a converted military rifle. But the two pictures posted so far show no proof marks, civilian or military, an American Winchester 70 type bolt sleeve, and an American stock. I don't doubt what you say, but you obviously are seeing something I can't.

Jim

mapsjanhere · July 18, 2015, 06:06 PM

Last sentence in the OP
it has the crown B and crown U marks
Pretty sure if he looks closer he'll also find the crown G, the date, and the gauge. If they're not there the barrel is most likely also aftermarket.

James K · July 18, 2015, 10:19 PM

Darn, I getting hard of seeing! Thanks.

Jim

Jimro · July 19, 2015, 05:05 AM

Quote:

The OP said it is an Oberndorf rifle which, if correct, would rule out its being a converted military rifle.

The action in the picture looks like a military action. Plenty of Obendorf Gew98 were converted in Germany post WWI and Obendorf K98 actions converted pretty much everywhere post WWII (US, Belgium, UK, etc).

The 375 H&H conversion was pretty common post WWII as it was cheaper than buying a new Winchester in 375, or a true Magnum Mauser action (generally reserved for 416 Rigby, 404 Jeffrey and other extra long safari cartridges, and the original line of Weatherby rifles).

I don't know where the engraving was done, can't even begin to guess. But I'm guessing the caliber conversion was done in the UK or the US post WWII. Had the conversion been done in Germany post WWI the odds are it would have been a 9.3x62.

Know that this is all pure conjecture on my part, but it certainly is a cool old rifle.

Jimro

mapsjanhere · July 19, 2015, 07:31 AM

Can you fit a 375 H&H into a standard Mauser action? I always thought the 3.34" of the 30-06 pretty much caps it lengthwise, and the 375 is 3.6 OAL.

Bassassassin · July 19, 2015, 09:09 AM

Alright, this gun was owned by my brother-in-law who was a huge African hunter. He also owned some Griffin & Howe weapons, some win 70s, and a 416 Rigby. It's value is not probably as a collectible, but as a safari gun. Thanks so much for the input, all very enlightening. If you look very closely you can see the second serial number under the Mauser one on the action. You can also see a crown V apart from the other proof marks. No idea what that means. The receiver is definitely a magnum or it would not be able to chamber .375. Let me try smaller pictures.

Bassassassin · July 19, 2015, 09:13 AM

Why can't I post multiple jpg images on one post?

Bassassassin · July 19, 2015, 09:14 AM

Bassassassin · July 19, 2015, 09:15 AM

Another

Bassassassin · July 19, 2015, 09:16 AM

How about one more

Jim Watson · July 19, 2015, 10:03 AM

Just speculating, we can never know...
I think someone, your brother in law or a previous owner, started with a German sporting rifle in some obscure metric caliber, with toothpick stock and funny furrin scope mount. He stripped it for the action and bottom metal, thus retaining the engraving. A US gunsmith - likely Mr Abe did all the work, not just the stock - rebarrelled and reworked the action for .375 and put on the Winchester type safety and American style stock.

Do you have the scope or at least the rings to fit?

Bassassassin · July 19, 2015, 10:21 AM

Jim,
I think you are spot on. I suspect Walter Abe took a nice magnum Oberndorf and made it an African sporting gun including the barrel and the stock. Who engraved it or why probably will remain a mystery forever. Still the daunting question: what's it worth? I see 375 Mauser mags for thousands. I see Abe customs for thousands yet you guys seem stuck on a thousand or so.

Bassassassin · July 19, 2015, 10:22 AM

Also I have Leupolds, S&M scopes and boxes of rings etc. think I can get it back together.

Bassassassin · July 19, 2015, 10:27 AM

The fella I had look at it is a gun appraiser by virtue of his hobby, not trade. He said 1500-2500. Maybe he's right. I just know that my brother-in-law was very wealthy. He did not buy cheap weapons

**44 AMP** · July 19, 2015, 11:30 AM

very nice custom rifle, despite the engraving not being to my personal taste. The model 70 style swing lever safety is a nice touch.

The problem is market value. Fine custom rifles from noted smiths do go for thousands of dollars, BUT equal quality work from an unknown smith (minus the engraving) might be on a dealers show table for less than $500.

your rifle, is in an even more specialized niche.

Not any kind of expert, but I would estimate the magnum mauser action alone to be worth around a grand, maybe more. They were never cheap, or common, and today are almost pearls beyond price.

July 17, 2015, 03:49 PM	#1
Bassassassin Junior Member Join Date: July 14, 2015 Posts: 13	Need help evaluating a Mauser 98 Hey everyone, new user here. Hope I am doing this right. Recently I inherited a gun which I know nothing about. What I do know: it is 98 Oberndorf sporter chambered in 375 H&H. It is engraved with Classic German oak leaves and acorns on the top and a lion scene on the floor plate. I was told by an "expert" that it was an inferior engraving job. After extensive research, I think this may be work of Fugger although it is not signed. That would maybe indicate that the gun is aGriffin and Howe but it doesn't seem to be. It has two serial numbers, the Mauser # and a four digit number. John Rigby Co. ? To add another twist the gun is sporting a nicely checkered Walter Abe stock. Any thoughts on the provenance or value of this weapon would be greatly appreciated. Also, it has the crown B and crown U marks.[AT[ATTACH]image.jpg

July 17, 2015, 04:49 PM	#3
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	As the gun has German proof marks it should have a date on it too, probably under the barrel. As the 375 H&H doesn't fit into a standard Mauser action, you have a magnum system that adds considerably to the value. The engraving on the one picture truly is not of great quality, but not bad enough to detract from the overall value. The question is how much is left of the German original, the stock doesn't look like a German pre WWII wood for example. There's also the question of the scope mount, a lot of German guns had custom fit mounts that, if lost, are hard to replace. First shot at value would be $1500 - 2000, pending more details. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

July 17, 2015, 06:12 PM	#6
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	The problem is simply that to reach a higher value you have to appeal to collectors, and a collector of German pre-war rifles will want the original stock. So that limits you to Abe collectors, but with the German looking engraving and scope mount I doubt he did a lot of work with it other than the stock. Guns are weird that way, even what other might think of as luxury upgrades turns off collectors. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

July 17, 2015, 09:32 PM	#9
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	The proof marks say it's a pre-war gun, made before the change to the nazi-marks in 39. As a German engraver would have never blued the gun, I'm pretty sure it's a "liberated" gun that made its way to the US and got reworked later on. The poor engraving is probably due to excessive polishing before blueing, to go with the US style lacquered stock. I don't think a German gun smith committed this. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

July 18, 2015, 03:51 AM	#10
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	The baseline for a used 375 H&H Mauser is in the 750 to 800 dollar range for a plane jane MarkX. I'd say what you have is worth more, but appraising custom rifles is not my line of work. The engraving looks a lot like what you would see done on a rifle for someone who was a serious hunter, without a lot of the fragile filigree work that would get really banged up in the field. A lot of older Shutzen rifles have similar work as they were expected to be shot more than admired. I happen to like the "rustic" style. Anyways it's a fine rifle, and if I were going to sell I'd put 1,300 on the tag and see if someone bites. That's just my opinion though. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

July 17, 2015, 03:58 PM	#2
Bassassassin Junior Member Join Date: July 14, 2015 Posts: 13	Apparently most of my photos are too large. I will have to edit them to post.

July 17, 2015, 05:06 PM	#4
Bassassassin Junior Member Join Date: July 14, 2015 Posts: 13	The stock is from Walter S Abe of LA, a somewhat famous custom gun builder.

July 17, 2015, 05:27 PM	#5
Bassassassin Junior Member Join Date: July 14, 2015 Posts: 13	image.jpg image.jpgLet me try again with the photos.

July 17, 2015, 08:06 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	No way to be sure of that rifle's sporter origin, but after the end of WWII, German gunsmiths, like the rest of the country, were pretty well broke. So they sold their guns and gunsmith services to the only people around with hard currency - American GI's. The result was some very fine "sporterizing" of rifles the Americans had captured from the Germans. Later, the PX's got into the act and organized the sporterizing and engraving business.. The early engraving was only so-so; it was called "carton of cigarettes" engraving because that was what it cost. Later, the work was often done by very fine workmen and (assuming German engraving is to your taste) some beautiful rifles were produced. Jim

July 18, 2015, 03:36 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, mapsjanhere, Where are you seeing proof marks and the other information? The OP said it is an Oberndorf rifle which, if correct, would rule out its being a converted military rifle. But the two pictures posted so far show no proof marks, civilian or military, an American Winchester 70 type bolt sleeve, and an American stock. I don't doubt what you say, but you obviously are seeing something I can't. Jim

July 18, 2015, 06:06 PM	#12
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Last sentence in the OP it has the crown B and crown U marks Pretty sure if he looks closer he'll also find the crown G, the date, and the gauge. If they're not there the barrel is most likely also aftermarket. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

July 18, 2015, 10:19 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Darn, I getting hard of seeing! Thanks. Jim

July 19, 2015, 07:31 AM	#15
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Can you fit a 375 H&H into a standard Mauser action? I always thought the 3.34" of the 30-06 pretty much caps it lengthwise, and the 375 is 3.6 OAL. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

July 19, 2015, 10:03 AM	#21
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Just speculating, we can never know... I think someone, your brother in law or a previous owner, started with a German sporting rifle in some obscure metric caliber, with toothpick stock and funny furrin scope mount. He stripped it for the action and bottom metal, thus retaining the engraving. A US gunsmith - likely Mr Abe did all the work, not just the stock - rebarrelled and reworked the action for .375 and put on the Winchester type safety and American style stock. Do you have the scope or at least the rings to fit?

July 19, 2015, 10:21 AM	#22
Bassassassin Junior Member Join Date: July 14, 2015 Posts: 13	Jim, I think you are spot on. I suspect Walter Abe took a nice magnum Oberndorf and made it an African sporting gun including the barrel and the stock. Who engraved it or why probably will remain a mystery forever. Still the daunting question: what's it worth? I see 375 Mauser mags for thousands. I see Abe customs for thousands yet you guys seem stuck on a thousand or so.

July 19, 2015, 10:22 AM	#23
Bassassassin Junior Member Join Date: July 14, 2015 Posts: 13	Also I have Leupolds, S&M scopes and boxes of rings etc. think I can get it back together.

July 19, 2015, 10:27 AM	#24
Bassassassin Junior Member Join Date: July 14, 2015 Posts: 13	The fella I had look at it is a gun appraiser by virtue of his hobby, not trade. He said 1500-2500. Maybe he's right. I just know that my brother-in-law was very wealthy. He did not buy cheap weapons

July 19, 2015, 11:30 AM	#25
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	very nice custom rifle, despite the engraving not being to my personal taste. The model 70 style swing lever safety is a nice touch. The problem is market value. Fine custom rifles from noted smiths do go for thousands of dollars, BUT equal quality work from an unknown smith (minus the engraving) might be on a dealers show table for less than $500. your rifle, is in an even more specialized niche. Not any kind of expert, but I would estimate the magnum mauser action alone to be worth around a grand, maybe more. They were never cheap, or common, and today are almost pearls beyond price. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.