Problem with single action

[HistoryJunky]

I have noticed a trend in my shooting for quite some time. Almost all of my pistols are DA/SA and I have a double action revolver now too.

I shoot double action better than single action. I've had a really hard time improving my single action accuracy. I don't know if I just get more sloppy when I'm shooting SA or what.

I guess I'm looking for a little advice.

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[44 AMP]

I shoot double action better than single action.

That makes you the exception to the general rule. Not sure if congratulations are in order, but most people shoot SA better, and have to struggle to learn to shoot DA as well as they do SA.

or, maybe you're defining "better" differently than I do. What do you mean by "better"??

[kenny53]

What I have found helps with my accuracy is to move the target closer. I have two double action revolvers. The Taurus model 85 is double action only. The SP 101 I shoot about the same double or single action either way I need more practice. My suggestion to you is pay attention to your trigger pull and see you the same technique double and single action. Hope this helps.

[HistoryJunky]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

That makes you the exception to the general rule. Not sure if congratulations are in order, but most people shoot SA better, and have to struggle to learn to shoot DA as well as they do SA.

or, maybe you're defining "better" differently than I do. What do you mean by "better"??

No I have more hits than misses and better general accuracy when shooting DA.

I am aware it is strange.

I am thinking I might just be losing concentration when I shoot SA.

I tend to get caught up in the moment when shooting SA shots back to back and probably shoot too fast.

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[Nathan]

I would study this as generally more shots are fired SA, unless you are a revolver guy!

[44 AMP]

Ok, if SA shooting a semi auto turns you into a low rate machinegun, then yes, the problem is you, simply not taking the needed time to aim well.

Its not uncommon, especially with beginning shooters (usually kids) when all you have to do is pull the (relaitively) short, light trigger again, its easy to shoot faster than you aim.

I've taught kids to shoot using a semi auto .22, and found it very common for them to shoot, shoot, shoot, aim, shoot, shoot etc.

When my own kids were to be taught the pistol, I got a Ruger Single Six. The extra effort needed to cock the hammer for each and every shot also slowed them down, and the hit to fired ration went way up.

If you think maybe you aren't paying enough attention, then you probably aren't. Slow down. Take your time. Shoot a revolver SA, and get used to it. Forget speed shooting, focus on precision. Speed can come later.

If you aren't focused on each individual shot, then its just spray and pray, and even experienced shooters are not immune to the siren call of rapid fire.

[JohnKSa]

I've noticed that for some reason, the longer DA trigger pull can help some people who are having anticipation/flinching problems.

If you are seeing your group sizes shrink when you shoot DA vs. when you shoot carefully with SA, then it's likely you are anticipating the shot/flinching.

[Drm50]

I own a sack of S&W revolvers. Both K & N frames and a couple of J kit guns.
All adj sight models from 22-44g-45Colt. I can hit a 10" target at 100yds with
any off them. Also have a old 3screw Ruger SBH that I can hit the 10" target
at 100 but not near the accuracy of the S&Ws at practical target ranges. I can
count in one had the times I have shot in DA mode. The 22s & 38s only. It
would be a joke what my 50' targets would look like in DA. I only have Match
SA autos except for a PP in 32. The SA revolvers have a longer lock time no
matter how good the trigger, than firing a Da in SA mode. I was always under
the impression if you were good with a SA revolver you could do well with any
handgun. I'm sure I could empty anything I own into the kill zone on FBI
targets on DA but the group wouldn't be pretty. At SD ranges you don't need
sights, you should be able to point shoot.

[dyl]

I have a good friend who also shoots revolvers better in double action than single action. He practiced a lot exclusively in double action. For myself, I’ve noticed that when I go from my Kahr pistol (DAO) to a striker fired it not only feels different but my accuracy goes down too. I think there are a few elements at play here. Like 44 Amp suggests, it’s much easier to not give yourself enough time to pay attention to the other tasks that the other muscles in your hands and eyes (and your weak hand) have to do. In double action there is the opportunity to firm up these things as you reach the end of your trigger pull. Kind of like “staging the trigger” but for the other parts of the body involved. I think another thing at play here is the huge difference in tension between the trigger pull that is required and the amount of grip strength that needs to be present. In double action, there is less of a disparity between the tension in your trigger finger and grip during a pull. As your index finger is pulling very hard it helps your whole hand clench tighter too. In fact it requires your grip to be firm. You can’t “limp wrist” a hard double action pull. I find that in shooting a single action semi auto, I sometimes catch myself relaxing my grip because it won’t take as much force just to actuate the trigger. In a DA revolver if that happened the whole handgun would rotate or go askew with a weak grip. So it takes extra discipline in some aspects to keep the grip consistent but be light as a feather on the trigger pull for DA/SA transitions. The disparity in grip force versus trigger finger force seems unnatural, and it is.

[gbran]

I have several S&W Performance Center revolvers, they have really nice triggers compared to my other revolvers. I've certainly found them to be really nice in DA and quite accurate in DA. SA is great too and generally trumps DA, even in high end guns.

[UncleEd]

It's common to shoot DA better than SA in a revolver
that has a decent, not necessarily light but smooth,
action.

Bowling pin shooters used to report that in DA revolver
shooting they developed a rhythm that they lacked
in SA where each shot become a concentration game
to not anticipate, not flinch.

When shooting DA revolvers, I never bother with the
SA capability.

[AL45]

I think John Ksa hit the nail on the head, because I went through the same thing. I was flinching/anticipating on single action, but pulling the trigger back in double action some how stopped the flinch and I shot better in double action mode.

[Model12Win]

Shot my RBH-45C the other day about 10 yards made about a quarter size group I kid you not.

Most accurate pistol I own.

[44 AMP]

It's common to shoot DA better than SA in a revolver
that has a decent, not necessarily light but smooth,
action.

My personal experience is exactly the opposite. I have run into some DA guns that I could shoot DA almost as well as SA, but never one I could shoot better DA than I did SA. But that's just me, and we are all different in our abilities and skills.

Maybe I don't anticipate the shot, or flinch, shooting SA. I can't say for certain, but I don't THINK I do.

I don't usually shoot speed and I think maybe I might be "anticipating" the shot DA, because I see the cylinder turn...but its a small matter as I rarely shoot DA anyway.

When shooting DA revolvers, I never bother with the
SA capability.

Again, here, we are almost completely opposite. When I shoot DA revolvers I almost never bother with the DA capability.

I'm not just a dinosaur, I'm a well petrified fossil. When I began learning DA revolvers, the people teaching me were fossils, back then. They did believe in smokeless powder, but for a couple of them it was a stretch...

And among them, and therefore me at the time, the DA function of a DA revolver was something there for "emergency use only". I know today a lot of people will find that laughable, and foolish, but it was a real thing at the time, and the habits you learn growing up are tough to break out of, especially when you don't have a real need to do so.

[Bob Wright]

You say "hits and misses" but what are your groups like?

I'd suggest you use a smaller bull'e eye, say if you're using a 6" diameter target, go to a 3" diameter. Maybe back off on the distance. A 3" bull at fifteen yards or so. Then CONCENTRATE on sight alignment and trigger squeeze. Single action, you should be able to take out the 1" diameter pasters at ten yards easily.

Bob Wright

[T. O'Heir]

Try some dry fire practice. Dry firing is practice for breathing, sight picture and trigger control. Helps with anticipation/flinching problems too.
A door knob at the end of a hall way makes a good practice target.

[Frank Ettin]

I've posted this before, but it might bear repeating:

1. The first principle of accurate shooting is trigger control: a smooth press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving. Maintain your focus on the front sight (or the reticle if using a scope) as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off nor try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment. This is what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break."
   
   
2. One wants to place his finger on the trigger in a manner that facilitates that. Usually, the best place for the finger to contact the trigger will be the middle of the portion of the finger between the first knuckle and the fingertip, and that part of the finger should be perpendicular to the direction in which the trigger moves.
   
   
   • With some triggers, e. g., heavy double action triggers with a long travel, that placement might not provide enough leverage to work the trigger smoothly. In such cases, the trigger may be placed at the first joint.
     
     
   • In either case, the trigger finger needs to be curved away from the gun sufficiently to allow it to press the trigger straight back without the trigger finger binding or applying lateral pressure to the gun. If one has to reach too far to get his finger properly on the trigger (or turn the gun to the point that the axis of the barrel is significantly misaligned with the forearm), the gun is too big. (For example, I have a short trigger reach and can't properly shoot some handguns, like N frame Smith & Wesson revolvers double action.)
   
   
3. By keeping focus on the front sight (or reticle) and increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun essentially shoots itself, you don’t anticipate the shot breaking. But if you try to make the shot break at that one instant in time when everything seem steady and aligned, you usually wind up jerking the trigger.
   
   
4. Of course the gun will wobble a bit on the target. It is just not possible to hold the gun absolutely steady. Because you are alive, there will always be a slight movement caused by all the tiny movement associated with being alive: your heart beating; tiny muscular movements necessary to maintain your balance, etc. Try not to worry about the wobble and don’t worry about trying to keep the sight aligned on a single point. Just let the front sight be somewhere in a small, imaginary box in the center of the target. .
   
   
5. In our teaching we avoid using the words "squeeze" or "pull" to describe the actuation of the trigger. We prefer to refer to "pressing" the trigger. The word "press" seems to better describe the process of smoothly pressing the trigger straight back, with only the trigger finger moving, to a surprise break.
   
   
6. You'll want to be able to perform the fundamentals reflexively, on demand without conscious thought. You do that by practicing them slowly to develop smoothness. Then smooth becomes fast.
   
   
   • Again, remember that practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.
     
     
   • Practice also makes permanent. If you keep practicing doing something poorly, you will become an expert at doing it poorly.
   
   
7. Many people are uncomfortable with the idea of the gun firing "by surprise." They feel that when using the gun for practical applications, e. g., hunting or self defense, they need to be able to make the gun fire right now. But if you try to make the gun fire right now, you will almost certainly jerk the trigger thus jerking the gun off target and missing your shot. That's where the "compressed surprise break" comes in.
   
   
   • As you practice (perfectly) and develop the facility to reflexively (without conscious thought) apply a smooth, continuously increasing pressure to the trigger the time interval between beginning to press and the shot breaking gets progressively shorter until it become indistinguishable from being instantaneous. In other words, that period of uncertainty during which the shot might break, but you don't know exactly when, becomes vanishingly short. And that is the compressed surprise break.
     
     
   • Jeff Cooper explains the compressed surprise break in this video beginning at 36:04. This article by Jeff Campbell and this article by Jim Wilson might also be helpful.
     
     
   • It may help to understand the way humans learn a physical skill.
     
     
     • In learning a physical skill, we all go through a four step process:
       
       
       • unconscious incompetence, we can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;
         
         
       • conscious incompetence, we can't physically do something even though we know in our mind how to do it;
         
         
       • conscious competence, we know how to do something but can only do it right if we concentrate on doing it properly; and
         
         
       • unconscious competence, at this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively (as second nature) on demand without having to think about it.
       
       
     • To get to the third stage, you need to think through the physical task consciously in order to do it perfectly. You need to start slow; one must walk before he can run. The key here is going slow so that you can perform each repetition properly and smoothly. Don't try to be fast. Try to be smooth. Now here's the kicker: slow is smooth and smooth is fast. You are trying to program your body to perform each of the components of the task properly and efficiently. As the programing takes, you get smoother; and as you get smoother you get more efficient and more sure, and therefore, faster.
       
       
     • I have in fact seen this over and over, both in the classes I've been in and with students that I've helped train. Start slow, consciously doing the physical act smoothly. You start to get smooth, and as you get smooth your pace will start to pick up. And about now, you will have reached the stage of conscious competence. You can do something properly and well as long as you think about it.
       
       
     • To go from conscious competence to the final stage, unconscious competence, is usually thought to take around 5,000 good repetitions. The good news is that dry practice will count. The bad news is that poor repetitions don't count and can set you back. You need to work at this to get good.
       
       
     • If one has reached the stage of unconscious competence as far as trigger control is concerned, he will be able to consistently execute a proper, controlled trigger press quickly and without conscious thought. Of course one needs to practice regularly and properly to maintain proficiency, but it's easier to maintain it once achieved than it was to first achieve it.

[HistoryJunky]

Thank you all for your suggestions. I have been busy over the past couple days and kind of forgot I posted again. I do that a lot.

Anyways, I think there is a lot of truth to your ideas on me anticipating the shot/flinching. If I recall correctly, jerking the trigger is also associated with this?

I do know I get sloppy and try to shoot too fast. I just think it is more than that, because I have the same problem when I shoot slow in SA.

Going shooting again in a couple weeks. I will try some of your advice and try to dry fire some too. I haven't had time to do it much lately.

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[tallball]

It may not be relevant, but I've had a similar issue with a revolver I got just recently. I've only taken it out once, but am about to do so again this morning. It's an old S&W Model 10 with a very nice trigger. The DA trigger is light and smooth and easy to stage. I'm not usually that great with a DA trigger, but I shot it well. The SA trigger is so light that I had trouble adjusting to it. It kept going off before I was really ready. I'm going to work on improving that this morning.

[briandg]

I am somewhat the same way, I have developed a smooth roll for DA trigger pull, and can smoothly run the whole trigger pull until firing.

I have a problem with getting that single action pull to break perfectly. sometimes I simply can't do it, the finger just won''t move.

[44 AMP]

The SA trigger is so light that I had trouble adjusting to it. It kept going off before I was really ready.

This is what root cause analysis would call a "training issue". You're shooting a nice slick, smooth DA trigger, with what? an 8lb pull, 10? 12?, doesn't matter all that much, what matters is that the rated pull weight is the maximum pull on the trigger needed to operate it all the way through.

Your finger gets on the trigger and all too easily applies some pressure, in anticipation of the DA pull. 2-3lbs, maybe, maybe more its easy to do, put pressure on that DA trigger until you feel some resistance, THEN start to actually pull the trigger. Maybe you've got a DA/SA semi where you have some distance to take up before you are actually pulling the trigger...

DO that to a cocked revolver, with a 2-4lb trigger pull, and no take up, or slack in the trigger movement, and bang!! You just fired before you were ready.

Your finger is doing what you trained it to do, you probably don't even realize it.

Firearms operate on two levels, conscious and unconscious. People use lots of terms but they're all the same thing boiled down. IF you have the time, and take the time to think about what you need to do, you can run a lot of different guns well. If you don't, you are going to do one thing, the thing you do most often, and do it without thinking about it. If the gun in your hand at the time is the one you use most then you'll do the right thing(s) and it will be well. If the gun in your hand isn't the one you use most, and your unconscious actions aren't the right things to do, it can be bad...

A long time ago, circumstances put a friend's Browning Sweet 16 in my hands as a pheasant flushed in front of us, rather than my own Winchester Model 12. I had shot the Browning before, it was a fine gun, but not for me, that day. Because the bird was unexpected.

Heading straight away, I had some time, mounted the gun punched the safety OFF, and pulled the trigger.

Nothing. Not even a "click".

In the very brief time before the bird was gone, I did it TWICE more, punched the safety off and pulled the trigger. Exactly the same results as the first time. My reaction was instinctive, and if I had been holding my Winchester, I would have gotten the bird. But the Browning's safety is BEHIND the trigger, where the Winchester's is in front, and that's where my finger went, each time, because I wasn't thinking, I was just doing.

[briandg]

Your finger is doing what you trained it to do, you probably don't even realize it.

That, I believe, is exactly what my problem is. I have a problem adapting back to using only a short, light trigger pull since I don't at this time have any single action type handguns. Neither glock nor revolvers fired DA have that itsy bitsy touch that requires superb control of the finger. Of course, a rifle is different. But the nice, smooth draw of a DA or even the glock or other similar handguns gives flow.

If any of that makes sense to others, at least it makes sense to me.