Virginia ABC manager telling local shop they cant allow firearms?

KLRANGL · August 3, 2009, 04:37 PM

So this is a situation I was in over the weekend regarding one of my favorite little pizza places in Norfolk. It left me a bit confused.

Ive been to this place quite a few times a few months back. Me and my friends would all have to open carry as the location has an ABC license for consumption of alcohol on premise. This situation actually arose once before, but more on that later.
Well I was in there Saturday, with the shirt tucked on the inside of my IWB holster as usual. And towards the end, I was approached by our server, who wanted to inform me "for future reference" that I was not allowed to carry in the restaurant because of alcohol being served there. I said that that was not the case, as long as I was open carrying, but I did say that they could ask me to leave if they wanted. They said they would never do that, and that we were welcome to stay, but that their ABC manager said they were not allowed to have firearms in the restaurant. I was confused by this, and politely but firmly stated that I was fully allowed to carry in this restaurant unless they wished me to leave. They again declined, but the owner (the sweetest old lady), came over and decided to mention that my gun "looked exactly like the one that killed her grandson last April." I really didn't know what to say to that, so I just kind of playfully played it off. The owner then mentioned that the rule might have had something to do with almost losing their license after an underage drinking incident or something. I dint feel like repeating myself would have been productive, so the conversation kind of ended there. But I'm very confused. I'm almost positive ABC managers are not allowed to dictate store policy when it comes to firearms, and I would like to continue to go to the restaurant because of the great pizza and prices. But I wont give up my carry gun, especially in Norfolk.
Can anyone shed light on the situation or offer some advice? The only thing I can think of is if Virginia ABC can dictate store policy if there is an ABC infraction. Like I mentioned before, this sort of happened before. They told me about the same thing, and I responded with about the same thing. A couple police officers (who looked none too pleased at us carrying) did inform them that we could carry, unless they wanted us to go. That was almost a year ago, so maybe they "forgot?"

Sorry about being long winded. I might have to clarify some points as I go on, but let me know what you think.

isanchez2008 · August 3, 2009, 06:17 PM

Quote:

looked exactly like the one that killed her grandson last April

Should have asked if they had caught that no good, full of malice pistol and locked it up in the slammer

raimius · August 3, 2009, 06:42 PM

It does seem odd (I'm no expert on VA law though...)

I'd offer condolences to someone who lost a family member. It would seem to be the polite thing to do. "I'm very sorry to hear that." Then, change the subject back to the original discussion.

HeroHog · August 3, 2009, 09:57 PM

OC in a place that serves alcohol for consumption on the premises in VA, 100% legal. Anyone of any authority in that same place can ask you to leave for any reason, and if you fail to do so, you are guilty of trespass and can be arrested for same.

KLRANGL · August 3, 2009, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Anyone of any authority in that same place can ask you to leave for any reason, and if you fail to do so, you are guilty of trespass and can be arrested for same.

Yes, I get that, but no one asked me to leave...

**Mike Irwin** · August 4, 2009, 12:20 AM

"I'm almost positive ABC managers are not allowed to dictate store policy when it comes to firearms..."

I'm about 99.9% certain that you are correct, that VA ABC does NOT have that power.

They also do not have the power to ask you to leave the restaurant if you are open carrying because they are NOT 'persons of authority' as defined by the firearms laws.

My suggestion is that you pose this question on the Virginia Citizen's Defense League website. I'm sure that they would be very interested in hearing it.

KLRANGL · August 4, 2009, 09:33 AM

Mike, I would love to do that, but I cant seem to find a way to "post on their website" without contacting Van Cleeve directly (which I might do anyway). Am I missing something?

**Mike Irwin** · August 4, 2009, 11:17 AM

Sorry, that's what you have to do, e-mail one of their people. I wasn't clear on that. I was thinking too much "forum"...

rburch · August 4, 2009, 01:40 PM

+1 for what Mike Said. Email Van Cleeve about the situation, if that's what you have to do to contact them.

Also print out a copy of the Virginia law banning CC in restaurants, since it only bans concealed carry, and take that with you next time you go out.

ftd · August 4, 2009, 03:00 PM

I think that the ABC manager is a restautant's employee or owner who is responsible for following all the ABC rules, i.e., not a government person.

**Mike Irwin** · August 4, 2009, 03:27 PM

Oh.... you know, that may well be the case, the manager who is ABC certified to oversee alcohol distribution in the restaurant.

All well and good, but if he's using that as the rational to exclude firearms owners, I still think he's wrong, because ABC/Richmond still can't make that rule enforceable on a restaurant.

spacemanspiff · August 4, 2009, 03:58 PM

A shiny nickel says that the ABC manager was referring to the employees, and not the customers. That, or the ABC manager was not fully informed of the laws.

Now, on the flip side, isn't it still possible for a business owner to come up with their own policy about what they will or will not allow on their property? If the owner is uncomfortable about customers with firearms because of a personal loss in her family, why would you try to argue over it? Why excaberate her feelings of grief and loss? Just take your business elsewhere.

The world does not revolve around you and your gun.

KLRANGL · August 4, 2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:

The world does not revolve around you and your gun.

Lies...

Quote:

Now, on the flip side, isn't it still possible for a business owner to come up with their own policy about what they will or will not allow on their property?

You are quite right. And I informed them of that...

Quote:

If the owner is uncomfortable about customers with firearms because of a personal loss in her family, why would you try to argue over it? Why excaberate her feelings of grief and loss? Just take your business elsewhere.

I guess you missed the part where I asked her repeatedly if she (the owner) wanted me to leave. Both times she said no, and that I was more than welcome to stay. Like I said, she's a really nice person. There was no arguing, just me telling our server what the law was.
You might want to actually read my entire OP

Quote:

I think that the ABC manager is a restautant's employee

That was my understanding as well.

blume357 · August 5, 2009, 07:25 AM

What you need to do is go back and try to explain to them that they are wrong about the 'law'. that the law in Va allows you to carry in there, but they are also within their rights to tell you you can't and if they don't want you to come to their place anymore they just need to tell you that.

Don't get confrontational at any point, be friendly and smile and put compliments all through the discussion about how they make the best pizza in the universe.

they do and should have the right to not let you carry in their place of business.

August 3, 2009, 04:37 PM	#1
KLRANGL Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2008 Location: Fredericksburg, VA Posts: 958	Virginia ABC manager telling local shop they cant allow firearms? So this is a situation I was in over the weekend regarding one of my favorite little pizza places in Norfolk. It left me a bit confused. Ive been to this place quite a few times a few months back. Me and my friends would all have to open carry as the location has an ABC license for consumption of alcohol on premise. This situation actually arose once before, but more on that later. Well I was in there Saturday, with the shirt tucked on the inside of my IWB holster as usual. And towards the end, I was approached by our server, who wanted to inform me "for future reference" that I was not allowed to carry in the restaurant because of alcohol being served there. I said that that was not the case, as long as I was open carrying, but I did say that they could ask me to leave if they wanted. They said they would never do that, and that we were welcome to stay, but that their ABC manager said they were not allowed to have firearms in the restaurant. I was confused by this, and politely but firmly stated that I was fully allowed to carry in this restaurant unless they wished me to leave. They again declined, but the owner (the sweetest old lady), came over and decided to mention that my gun "looked exactly like the one that killed her grandson last April." I really didn't know what to say to that, so I just kind of playfully played it off. The owner then mentioned that the rule might have had something to do with almost losing their license after an underage drinking incident or something. I dint feel like repeating myself would have been productive, so the conversation kind of ended there. But I'm very confused. I'm almost positive ABC managers are not allowed to dictate store policy when it comes to firearms, and I would like to continue to go to the restaurant because of the great pizza and prices. But I wont give up my carry gun, especially in Norfolk. Can anyone shed light on the situation or offer some advice? The only thing I can think of is if Virginia ABC can dictate store policy if there is an ABC infraction. Like I mentioned before, this sort of happened before. They told me about the same thing, and I responded with about the same thing. A couple police officers (who looked none too pleased at us carrying) did inform them that we could carry, unless they wanted us to go. That was almost a year ago, so maybe they "forgot?" Sorry about being long winded. I might have to clarify some points as I go on, but let me know what you think. __________________ And it's Killer Angel... as in the book

August 3, 2009, 09:57 PM	#4
HeroHog Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2008 Location: Shreveport, LA Posts: 486	OC in a place that serves alcohol for consumption on the premises in VA, 100% legal. Anyone of any authority in that same place can ask you to leave for any reason, and if you fail to do so, you are guilty of trespass and can be arrested for same. __________________ Speedy AKA: Hero Hog, Dr. Speed, "That fat, old, balding, Grey-bearded gimpy guy" *I don't have NEAR enough ammo on hand. `Nuff said.*

August 4, 2009, 12:20 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"I'm almost positive ABC managers are not allowed to dictate store policy when it comes to firearms..." I'm about 99.9% certain that you are correct, that VA ABC does NOT have that power. They also do not have the power to ask you to leave the restaurant if you are open carrying because they are NOT 'persons of authority' as defined by the firearms laws. My suggestion is that you pose this question on the Virginia Citizen's Defense League website. I'm sure that they would be very interested in hearing it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 4, 2009, 09:33 AM	#7
KLRANGL Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2008 Location: Fredericksburg, VA Posts: 958	Mike, I would love to do that, but I cant seem to find a way to "post on their website" without contacting Van Cleeve directly (which I might do anyway). Am I missing something? __________________ And it's Killer Angel... as in the book

August 4, 2009, 11:17 AM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Sorry, that's what you have to do, e-mail one of their people. I wasn't clear on that. I was thinking too much "forum"... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 3, 2009, 06:42 PM	#3
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	It does seem odd (I'm no expert on VA law though...) I'd offer condolences to someone who lost a family member. It would seem to be the polite thing to do. "I'm very sorry to hear that." Then, change the subject back to the original discussion.

August 4, 2009, 01:40 PM	#9
rburch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Blacksburg VA Posts: 750	+1 for what Mike Said. Email Van Cleeve about the situation, if that's what you have to do to contact them. Also print out a copy of the Virginia law banning CC in restaurants, since it only bans concealed carry, and take that with you next time you go out. __________________ I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

August 4, 2009, 03:00 PM	#10
ftd Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 109	ABC Manager I think that the ABC manager is a restautant's employee or owner who is responsible for following all the ABC rules, i.e., not a government person.

August 4, 2009, 03:27 PM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Oh.... you know, that may well be the case, the manager who is ABC certified to oversee alcohol distribution in the restaurant. All well and good, but if he's using that as the rational to exclude firearms owners, I still think he's wrong, because ABC/Richmond still can't make that rule enforceable on a restaurant. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 4, 2009, 03:58 PM	#12
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	A shiny nickel says that the ABC manager was referring to the employees, and not the customers. That, or the ABC manager was not fully informed of the laws. Now, on the flip side, isn't it still possible for a business owner to come up with their own policy about what they will or will not allow on their property? If the owner is uncomfortable about customers with firearms because of a personal loss in her family, why would you try to argue over it? Why excaberate her feelings of grief and loss? Just take your business elsewhere. The world does not revolve around you and your gun. __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

August 5, 2009, 07:25 AM	#14
blume357 Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 3,943	I think you did the right thing.... What you need to do is go back and try to explain to them that they are wrong about the 'law'. that the law in Va allows you to carry in there, but they are also within their rights to tell you you can't and if they don't want you to come to their place anymore they just need to tell you that. Don't get confrontational at any point, be friendly and smile and put compliments all through the discussion about how they make the best pizza in the universe. they do and should have the right to not let you carry in their place of business.