Inciting murder to protect the 2A

[Ricky B]

This from a press release issued by the U.S. Dept. of Justice:

Hal Turner, an intermittent internet radio talk show host and blogger, was arrested today by FBI agents at his home in North Bergen, N.J., on a federal complaint filed in Chicago alleging that he made internet postings threatening to assault and murder three federal appeals court judges in Chicago in retaliation for their recent ruling upholding handgun bans in Chicago and a suburb. Internet postings on June 2 and 3 proclaimed “outrage” over the June 2 handgun decision by Chief Judge Frank Easterbrook and Judges Richard Posner and William Bauer, of the Chicago-based 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, further stating, among other things: “Let me be the first to say this plainly: These Judges deserve to be killed.” The postings included photographs, phone numbers, work address and room numbers of these judges, along with a photo of the building in which they work and a map of its location.

The complete press release may be found here:

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/pr/chi.../pr0624_01.pdf

[Shadi Khalil]

I was listening to NPR today and they had an interesting segment on the FBI crack down on these very crimes. In the past three months there have been three incidents involving these "fringe types". First was the murder of an abortion doctor, second was a Muslim convert who shot and killed a solider in AK and third was the Holocaust shooter. The FBI has begun to engage the leadership of white supremest groups ect. to try and identify those they turn away. They have also stepped up their monitoring of web content, probably what got this guy. It's a good thing they got this dummy before he did anything crazier than publicly threating elected officials.

[Wildalaska]

Hal Turner is a white supremecist, neo nazi kook. His arrest already has all the loons up in arms from left (stop hatred lock up all conservatives) to right (its ZOG, get ready to be shut down, war is coming).

That being said, I wont comment about the validity of the charges as I have no info. In general, one of the big problems in todays PC world is the attempts on the part of government to stifle loons...that gives them credibility they don't deserve.

WildowellguessitshighpowertimeagainthejewhatersarerestlessAlaska TM

[vranasaurus]

I certainly don't approve of this guy or his message just as I don't approve of the loons that are all over this country.

That being said I am not really in support of the government infringing upon 1st amendment rights in the name of safety. Now before I call the charges bvogus I would certainly need more information.

Both conservatives and liberals love free speech when they like the message but are more than willing to do away with it for those they don't agree with.

[johnwilliamson062]

Without having the exact context of his statements, which I can't find. Maybe they were taken down.
Stating that someone "deserves to be killed" is not going to pass my check on inciting murder. It is a fine line, but I do not think that exact wording crosses it. The addresses could be listed so people can mail the judges. It was their work address and office room number. I can't believe that information is all that hard to come by in the first place.

I advocate parents using FORCE AND VIOLENCE against Superintendent Paul B. Ash as a method of defending the health and safety of school children presently being endangered through his politically-correct indoctrination into deadly, disease-ridden sodomite lifestyles.

Why wasn't there an arrest following that much more inciting statement?

Clearly overprotection of Federal Judges relative to normal citizens. Judges need to feel safe to do their job, but they should have gotten this guy for something else that was more clearly illegal. He has made quite a few calls for extra-judicial vigilante violence in the past that were more clear in their intent.

[Ricky B]

Here's some additional context.

In 2000, Joan Lefkow, one of the judges in Chicago (which is a district in the Seventh Circuit) presided over a trial involving a neo-Nazi, Matthew Hale. The trial was a dispute over the right to use a trademarked name for his church. After the judge ruled in his favor, her ruling was reversed on appeal. Thereafter she entered an order against him. Threats were made against Judge Lefkow on the internet and her home address and family photographs of her husband and children were posted on the Stormfront.org website.

An undercover FBI informant taped a conversation with Hale where he asked about Judge Lefkow's home address and discussed her impending "extermination". Hale was arrested and convicted of charges of plotting to murder Judge Lefkow.

In 2005, Judge Lefkow returned home to find the bodies of both her husband and mother dead in the basement of her North Side home. Both had been shot multiple times.

Later, a Wisconsin police officer stopped a car driven by an electrician named Bart Ross, who shot and killed himself. The evidence in the car and elsewhere showed that he was the murderer of Judge Lefkow's family. Ross had been a plaintiff in a medical malpractice case that Judge Lefkow had dismissed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Lefkow

Now with this background, I quote from the press release about Turner that I originally linked to in the OP:

In addition to proclaiming “These judges deserve to be killed,” the entry notes that it was the same 7th Circuit Court of Appeals that decided the case of Matt Hale, a white-supremacist who was imprisoned after being convicted of soliciting the murder of a U.S. District Court judge in Chicago. The entry further noted that the same judge’s mother and husband were murdered by a gunman in her home. The posting then stated:

“Apparently, the 7th U.S. Circuit court didn’t get the hint after those killings. It appears another lesson is needed.”

The complaint charges that the posting was updated the next morning on June 3, 2009, with the following content:

“Judges official public work addresses and a map of the area are below. Their home addresses and maps will follow soon. Behold these devils.”

I have no sympathy for Turner. I think it's fine for anyone to decry public officials for stepping over what he personally considers constitutional limits, to call for impeachment of judges, for amending the constitution or changing the law, and even for abolishing the offices of those whose conduct offends you. But to publicly call for someone to murder a public official because you don't agree with his (or in this case, their) decision does not in my mind come within the First Amendment. In my view, Turner was clearly hoping someone would do the dirty work for which he would have no responsibility.

This is going to be an interesting First Amendment case.

And kooks like Turner, who want judges killed simply because they ruled against Second Amendment claims, are no friends of the Second Amendment.

[pnac]

A blogger at SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center) speculates that Hal Turner might be an FBI informant, used to draw out the crazies. Who knows, it sounds plausible, given other FBI stings in the past.

Whole, long, article here:
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2008/0...rking-for-fbi/

Neo-Nazi Threatmaker Accused of Working for FBI
Posted in Anti-Gay, Anti-Immigrant, Anti-Latino, Anti-Muslim, Anti-Semitic, Neo-Nazi, White Supremacist by Mark Potok on January 11, 2008

Print This Post
New Jersey radio host Hal Turner is well known as one of the most vicious neo-Nazis in America, a man who routinely suggests killing his enemies.

Railing against President Bush, he told his audience last June that “a well-placed bullet can solve a lot of problems.” He has written that “we need to start SHOOTING AND KILLING Mexicans as they cross the border” and argued that killing certain federal judges “may be illegal, but it wouldn’t be wrong.” In 2006, after he published an attack on New Jersey Supreme Court justices that also included several of their home addresses, state police massively beefed up security for the members of the court, checking on one justice’s house more than 200 times.

Hal Turner is one serious extremist. He may also be on the FBI payroll.

On Jan. 1, unidentified hackers electronically confronted Turner in the forum of his website for “The Hal Turner Show.” After a heated exchange, they told Turner that they had successfully hacked into his E-mails and found correspondence with an FBI agent who is apparently Turner’s handler. Then they posted an alleged July 7 E-mail to the agent in which Turner hands over a message from someone who sent in a death threat against Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wisc.). “Once again,” Turner writes to his handler, “my fierce rhetoric has served to flush out a possible crazy.” In what is allegedly a portion of another E-mail, Turner discusses the money he is paid.

[johnwilliamson062]

“Apparently, the 7th U.S. Circuit court didn’t get the hint after those killings. It appears another lesson is needed.”
To my understanding this was from a post long before the one he was arrested for and not surrounded by any context concerning murder or violence. It is very hard for me to make heads or tails of this as all I am able to find is very brief quotes with limited explanation of their context. Without seeing the quotes put in a context that clearly indicates that lesson should be taught by murder or violence, I am not impressed. It could very well be out there, but the FBI did not include it in their federal complaint. That federal complaint should include the link between the two statements and all of the others I am finding.
I could look through the threads of almost any regular poster here, quote single sentence snippets here and there, and make them seem like whatever I want. This guy has been on the radar for a very long time and I don't see why they could not put something a little more convincing together.

Oh, now that I see his work as an informant was exposed it all makes sense. He was probably begging for them to arrest him. Think how ticked his "assassins" will be.
Heck, think of the entrapment possibilities this could open up. The FBI is going to sit him somewhere safe for six months then send him to some far corner and hope no one notices. They don't want this going anywhere.

[B.N.Real]

While I support the right to free speech,I don't think that saying a person must be killed and posting everything about them is protected free speech.

Mr.Turner will likely get another axe to grind against the government as I hope he gets at least ten years for posting such information and inciting murder against these people.

You have a problem with the system,GET INVOLVED AND CHANGE IT LEGALLY.

The only reason someone don't get involved is because basically they are lazy axxes.

It is really easy and lazy to spout off nonsense and hope someone else does the work you are'nt man enough to get done yourself.

Enjoy your jail cell,Mr Turner,YOU EARNED IT.

[Top_Notch]

The problem is liberal kooks are running Chicago and at the opposite extreme, the right wing conservative kooks calling for action. We need to meet somewhere in the middle ground, but by no means am I calling for 'reasonable gun control measures'. Sort of reminds me of the anti abortion protestors who kill abortion doctors. Doesn't that go against what they stand for? (I know the arguments, but I see irony in their actions.)

Interesting case nonetheless. The right wingers will see this as a reason to call for CCW and the liberals will see this as a reason why we should have more gun control. (...as if that's needed or even possible in Chicago/Crook County/Illinois).

[Mr. James]

Didn't the tsarist Okhrana routinely arrest and sentence to exile its own agents provocateur, including many leading lights of what became the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (such as one I. V. Djugashvili)?

Just sayin'!

[Big Ugly Tall Texan]

Making open threats of violence on the internet is just plain stupid.

ESPECIALLY threats against Federal judges.

Not to mention that the concept is just plain WRONG.

[ImprobableJoe]

From the "liberal" side: none of us want your guns, none of us blame law-abiding gun owners for violence, and none of us equate "conservative" with "right-wing terrorist." I read all the big progressive blogs, and none of them are calling for gun bans or restrictions of political speech. The talk about people taking your guns is about as nutty as people blaming 9/11 on Dick Cheney.

You can scream "impeach the creeps!" at whoever you want, and I'll feel free to do the same. Democracy is messy and usually involves people yelling at each other, and that's great! When someone says that certain people need to be killed, and provided directions to do it, that's way beyond anything that any of us are involved in.


Here's an idea: instead of turning this into a political issue, or allowing politicians to twist you about, let's us regular citizen folks talk to each other in a calm manner, and reject extremist loonies without further demonizing the targets of those loonies. This isn't really about guns and gun rights... this is about a racist using guns as a wedge to turn us against each other.

[johnwilliamson062]

Has anyone found a decent source that goes into the alleged financial compensation he received from the FBI for being an informant?

[stargazer65]

Not much I can say regarding this article other than condemning the man's rhetoric and actions as being not representative of the vast majority of persons who support 2A rights.

From the "liberal" side: none of us want your guns, none of us blame law-abiding gun owners for violence, and none of us equate "conservative" with "right-wing terrorist." I read all the big progressive blogs, and none of them are calling for gun bans or restrictions of political speech. The talk about people taking your guns is about as nutty as people blaming 9/11 on Dick Cheney.

To use the word "none" is probably a little extreme, the probability that there isn't at least one person who probably wants our guns is pretty improbable Improbable Joe.

[ImprobableJoe]

To use the word "none" is probably a little extreme, the probability that there isn't at least one person who probably wants our guns is pretty improbable Improbable Joe.

"None" from a statistically meaningful standpoint. I mean, "no one" thinks that the Earth is flat... but you can find a few hundred nutballs who do. By the same token, I guess there are a few idiots who think total firearm bans are a good idea, but no one should take them seriously either! That includes Democratic politicians, who don't even have the balls to pass a healthcare reform bill with a public option, even with an even split on it among REPUBLICAN voters. Do you think they have the guts to take n the NRA? I don't.

[Wildalaska]

Didn't the tsarist Okhrana routinely arrest and sentence to exile its own agents provocateur, including many leading lights of what became the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (such as one I. V. Djugashvili)?

Serious historians, as opposed to agenda ridden net sources, reject the notion that Stalin was an Ohkrana agent. However, Roman Malinovsky, a member of the Bolshevik inner circle, was an agent of the Ohkrana. I have not seen a reference to "many leading lights" of the CPSU being Okhrana agents in any of the serious historical analyses of the period

WildjusttocorrectcarryonAlaska ™

[stargazer65]

By the same token, I guess there are a few idiots who think total firearm bans are a good idea, but no one should take them seriously either!

I get your meaning. But it was fun to type that sentence.

So I would think it would be fair to say:

No one thnks that threatening a judge's life would be a good way to protect 2A rights.
It's a self defeating action.

[44 AMP]

Between BS with your buddies over a beverage and statements made in a public venue, which included "private" forums or blogs on the internet.

Public statements about what "ought" to happen are a bit of a gray area, and its up to the prosecution to decide if they meet the legal definition of a threat. Apparently that has happened in this case, as the man was arrested.

Our freedom of speech allows us to advocate almost anything in public, short of armed overthrow of the govt, and other crimes, including murder.

Threats against public officials fall into a slightly different category than general statements, and the level of official scrutiny is higher. Make a public statement about killing a judge, or lynching the president, and the odds are, you will have your day in court!

[markfh]

Make a public statement about killing a judge, or lynching the president, and the odds are, you will have your day in court!

This depends on which side is making the statement. I seem to recall many threats or suggestions of violence against President Bush and members of his administration not to mention a movie about his assassination. I don't recall anybody being arrested for any of that.

[pnac]

Hal Turner claims in court that he is an FBI informant according to The Chicago Tribune.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2...al-judges.html

Radio host denies threatening federal judges
July 28, 2009 12:59 PM | 7 Comments
An Internet radio host pleaded not guilty today to threatening to kill three federal appellate judges in Chicago and then sought his release from custody, saying he has been an informant for the FBI.

Hal Turner, who was arrested last month at his home in New Jersey, shook his head after being handed a copy of the indictment.

Turner is charged with calling for appellate judges Frank Easterbrook, William Bauer and Richard Posner to be killed after they affirmed a lower court decision June 2 to dismiss challenges to Chicago's handgun ban.

Turner allegedly used his web site to put out the message that all three were "cunning, ruthless, untrustworthy, disloyal, unpatriotic, deceitful scum."

"Let me be the first to say this plainly: These judges deserve to be killed," he allegedly said.

A federal judge from Louisiana will be brought in to preside over the case.

U.S. Magistrate Judge Martin Ashman gave Turner 10 days to subpoena an FBI agent who Turner contends acted as his handler as he supplied the government with information. Turner's lawyer, Michael Orozco, said Turner prevented military equipment from being sold on the Internet and even tipped off the U.S. Marshal Service to a threat against President Barack Obama.

"So you're saying he's an American hero," Ashman said somewhat sarcastically.

As for the charges, Orozco said Turner was only giving his opinion on the judges' ruling and that he has a Constitutional right to free speech.

Assistant U.S. Atty. William Hogan said a magistrate judge in New Jersey had already ordered Turner detained before he was sent to Chicago, finding that he was a threat to the community. He has continued to air threatening radio messages on the Internet since his arrest, including a call placed from custody in New Jersey, Hogan said.

Hogan said Turner may have had some contact with the FBI as an informant but that it was quite some time ago. He said he had no idea about any action Turner supposedly took to thwart an attack on the president.

-- Jeff Coen