The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 22, 2018, 10:13 PM   #1
OhioGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2016
Posts: 1,089
Shooting an accomplice...from a Brazilian video

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com...armed-robbers/

At about the 3-minute point in the video, the narrator States unequivocally that because the second robber was in cahoots with the first, you can legitimately assume that he is also an armed thread and engage him. Does anybody know of cases in which this actually happened, and how those cases turned out for the person who stopped the robbery?

Somehow it's hard to imagine that shooting the Armed robber, and then shooting his accomplice before you have any visual confirmation that he's armed, wouldnt cause all sorts of problems...?

The narrator did not specify that this was the case just in South America, or only for off-duty police. Anyone listening to this video would come away with the idea that this is okay for anybody who is armed and acts to stop a robbery.
OhioGuy is offline  
Old May 22, 2018, 10:44 PM   #2
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 4,322
Considering how different the rules are everywhere, ... that’s a loaded question.
In Texas juries and grand juries have tended to consider all the attackers “fair game”. (My non-legal term) Except in 3 ultra liberal cities where anyone using a gun in self defense is going to trial.

But I believe that the narrator (who does a lot of these after action shooting reviews) generally discusses tactics not specific laws.
__________________

Cave illos in guns et backhoes
TXAZ is offline  
Old June 10, 2018, 07:35 PM   #3
kenny53
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2015
Location: My back yard
Posts: 971
I have seen a lot of these videos on you tube. It seems like the wild west in South America. I would guess self defense laws down there are a little more lax then in the USA. Plus it differs on where you are in the U.S.
kenny53 is offline  
Old June 10, 2018, 07:47 PM   #4
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,928
A lot of the shooting the shooting videos out of South America (like this one) involve off-duty/plainclothes police. Extrapolating the legality of LE tactics in a foreign country to civilian self-defense in this country is tricky.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old June 10, 2018, 07:48 PM   #5
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,525
link to the shooting at Shoats not far from me: link

and: link2
2damnold4this is offline  
Old June 10, 2018, 08:53 PM   #6
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,714
Quote:
Somehow it's hard to imagine that shooting the Armed robber, and then shooting his accomplice before you have any visual confirmation that he's armed, wouldnt cause all sorts of problems...?
You need to learn the laws of your state, plain and simple.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old June 10, 2018, 11:23 PM   #7
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioGuy
The narrator did not specify that this was the case just in South America, or only for off-duty police.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny53
I have seen a lot of these videos on you tube. It seems like the wild west in South America.
Please don't generalize. I believe there are fourteen separate countries in South America, each with its own laws, constitution, police, and judiciary. What's legal in Brazil might not be legal in Paraguay or Uruguay.

In my late wife's native country (in South America), for example, there are no local police. All police are the national police, and they are technically a branch of the military. I have no idea what the status of the police is in Brazil.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old June 11, 2018, 12:39 AM   #8
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,780
If this happened in my state LEO/ NON-LEO the questions will be:

- Did you fear for your life and the lives of others?

- Why?

If the shooter can answer these questions effectively with fact based evidence the rest of it likely will not matter.

Notes:
- The second robber never showed a gun. It does not mean he did not have one. He was a party to an armed robbery so odds were good he did have one.

- The analysis guy said it is unusual for a robber not to pull a gun. This is likely untrue. Lone actor bank robbers often do not show a gun because they don't want to start a panic. They know the bank tellers are trained to give them the money. They pass a note and wait calmly. They may or may not show a gun. They then leave calmly.

- Note that the shooter shot both suspects twice at close range with COM hits from what looked like a full size 9mm and that neither dropped and both were able to flee (and therefore still fight as well).
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.
MTT TL is offline  
Old June 11, 2018, 08:15 AM   #9
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT TL
- The analysis guy said it is unusual for a robber not to pull a gun. This is likely untrue. Lone actor bank robbers often do not show a gun because they don't want to start a panic. They know the bank tellers are trained to give them the money. They pass a note and wait calmly. They may or may not show a gun. They then leave calmly.
Don't try to apply U.S. logic to Brazil. As I've noted, my late wife was from another South American Country. Brazil isn't quite as unsafe as Venezuela, but it's pretty bad. Even a few years before she passed away (which was 4+ years ago), when the subject of Brazil came up she said "I can go there, but you can't. It's not safe for Americans." I have an e-friend in Brazil from another "gun" forum who has told me the same thing.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old June 11, 2018, 08:17 AM   #10
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,780
I am not, that is why I prefaced with "in my state" We can draw lessons and inferences but each must apply them to their particulars.
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.
MTT TL is offline  
Old June 14, 2018, 12:44 AM   #11
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
In my state I believe that you could justify and be safe to shoot the accomplice, even if not obviously armed and presenting a lethal threat. If the first target was completely justifiable, it follows that the second will be equally as dangerous.

But, here is the rub, I don't think that without presentation of a deadly weapon or other sign of possible serious attack, I don't think that it will hold up.

IMO. According to legal issues that I have followed and what I believe the principles of our law are, the accomplice must present an equal level of threat. There must be an equal level of danger, and fear of danger. Just being the guy standing next to the threat doesn't justify use of force against him.

I believe that if such a thing happened in my state, which has very strong protection for use of force, there would be a prosecution and possible conviction for shooting an unarmed, or if armed, non-threatening accomplice.

Our state laws, as many others do, require that the shooter provide evidence that the threat was tangible and believable.

We have liberal castle laws, but our responsibilities are different for just normal encounters outside of the home.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old June 17, 2018, 07:03 AM   #12
muzzleblast...
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2015
Location: Obwat, TN
Posts: 285
In general, multiple assailants engaged in the commission of a forcible felony creates a situation of "disparity of force".
muzzleblast... is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.04608 seconds with 10 queries