Announced RETURN of the Ruger PC9

[TruthTellers]

...9mm AR carbines out there that outperform the Ruger carbine by a "huge" amount in any category.

Out of the Kel Tec, Beretta, Hi Point, Kriss, and AR 9mm carbines, each carbine has it's own advantages and disadvantages to the Ruger, be it in price, design, function, weight, size, etc.

For what pistol carbines are, which is mainly plinkers and self defense guns, AR's may be the worst pistol carbines out there.

[JohnKSa]

...folks can juggle geese if they please...

I love that quote. I use it from time to time, but people rarely realize its origin.

I was intending to point out the shortcomings of former, but the latter appears to be lacking, if to lesser extent, and without looking very hard:

The price (NO magazine, NO sights) for the PSA carbine is about $530. You can easily find the Ruger carbine for sale (with magazine and sights) for that price or a little less. I expect prices will come down even more with time.

[Apple a Day]

I'd prefer one with a fixed barrel and longer sight radius but I'm looking forward to getting one.
I think it hits a sweet spot between that awkward Kel-Tec sub-2000 and the Skorpion EVO

[Areoflyer09]

Coming under MSRP isn’t difficult. Beating the street price by any substantial amount is more difficult.

[stagpanther]

Looks to me like somebody seems to think it's a good idea.

[agtman]

I'm wondering if the movement towards modern pistol caliber rifles will eventually spur development of true 9 and 10 mm rifle profile bullets built to maximize the velocity potential in a carbine set-up.

Good question, Stag.

Right now, though, you can add Hornady's 10mm XTP-HP and FMJ-FP to the list of .40-cal/10mm projectiles able to stand up at real 10mm velocities. In fact, the original XTP was designed in the late '80s as a dedicated, hard-edged 10mm bullet, back in the era when the FBI's ballistic doctrine called for "penetration, penetration, penetration."

[stagpanther]

I've loaded up some of Lehigh's 115 gr extreme penetrators--my belief is that 1700+ fps should be easily attainable in an AR tube--but I'll see. It's not what I would call aerodynamic--but at least it isn't a hollow point and it certainly isn't going to fly apart at higher velocities. They're not the easiest bullet design to get to chamber though.

[shootbrownelk]

I want Ruger to offer their old "Deerfield" carbine in .44 magnum again, or offer this takedown carbine in more substantial calibers. Like .44 magnum or .45 colt.

[stagpanther]

I want Ruger to offer their old "Deerfield" carbine in .44 magnum again, or offer this takedown carbine in more substantial calibers. Like .44 magnum or .45 colt.

Might happen--but from a marketing point of view my guess is those chamberings would have to compete with a whole bunch of very successful lever gun implementations--not to mention the technical issues of handling much higher power cartridges in a semi-auto. 44 mag is my favorite all-around pistol cartridge--so I certainly wouldn't mind it. : )

[9x19]

Originally Posted by shootbrownelk

I want Ruger to offer their old "Deerfield" carbine in .44 magnum again, or offer this takedown carbine in more substantial calibers. Like .44 magnum or .45 colt.

I can offer you a picture of mine to tide you over....

Ruger 99/44 Deerfield

[Dragline45]

I've written to Ruger requesting them to bring this gun back numerous times over the years, needless to say I am pretty pumped. Living in ban state I am also happy to hear it can accept Glock mags as I can get 15rd and 17rd preban mags. Hoping they make a Sig adapter, I have a whole bunch of 15rd preban sig mags

[Bart Noir]

The original was blowback.

I miss your point. This new carbine is also a blow-back design.

And that separate bolt-face may mean that people will be able to convert between calibers, by buying the front half (barrel and chamber) and a bolt-face for the 2nd caliber.

Bart Noir

[smee78]

I also am happy Ruger has brought this gun back, while it seems to suffer the same ailments as the older model ( weight, blowback, heavy bolt) it seems to add some new features I like such as the threaded barrel. I do wish they would design some type of cap the covers the lower portion of the rails for when they are not in use. Being able to use a standard rail attachment VS the Ruger only positions is a nice feature. Over all I will likly give one a chance, hope they make different calibers and more adaptors.

[lokidansk]

I wish my old PC4 was M&P mag compatable.

[lokidansk]

Originally Posted by Bart Noir

I miss your point. This new carbine is also a blow-back design.

And that separate bolt-face may mean that people will be able to convert between calibers, by buying the front half (barrel and chamber) and a bolt-face for the 2nd caliber.

Bart Noir

was a reply to JohnKSa

[johnwilliamson062]

The new Ruger PC Carbine weights 6.8 pounds and is 34 inches long.

The new hipoint with lots of rails and as much bulk as can be reasonably be tolerated, even on a budget gun, weights in at 6.25 pounds. That is using cheap alloys that require more volume/weight. Also direct blow-back. Ruger needed half a pound more? Maybe those numbers are loaded mag and the ruger holds more, but I don't think that is normal.

I don't think it is out of line to expect something sleeker than a hipoint. ONce I get my hands on one there might be good reasons the PC 9 is heavier. Maybe they used a denser stock that is more rigid for instance.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062

The new hipoint with lots of rails and as much bulk as can be reasonably be tolerated, even on a budget gun, weights in at 6.25 pounds. That is using cheap alloys that require more volume/weight. Also direct blow-back. Ruger needed half a pound more? Maybe those numbers are loaded mag and the ruger holds more, but I don't think that is normal.

I don't think it is out of line to expect something sleeker than a hipoint. ONce I get my hands on one there might be good reasons the PC 9 is heavier. Maybe they used a denser stock that is more rigid for instance.

Military Arms Channel did a tear down and the bolt face is removable, which he's thinking means the carbine is multi caliber.

Makes sense to me because the barrel is removable, thus replaceable, and the magazine well is also replaceable. The bolt looks to be heavy enough for 10mm, all it would need is a heavier recoil spring.

My opinion is the extra weight is there for future 10mm or .40 S&W conversion kits.

[gc70]

Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062

The new hipoint with lots of rails and as much bulk as can be reasonably be tolerated, even on a budget gun, weights in at 6.25 pounds. That is using cheap alloys that require more volume/weight. Also direct blow-back. Ruger needed half a pound more? Maybe those numbers are loaded mag and the ruger holds more, but I don't think that is normal.

I don't think it is out of line to expect something sleeker than a hipoint. ONce I get my hands on one there might be good reasons the PC 9 is heavier. Maybe they used a denser stock that is more rigid for instance.

Colt's 9mm AR (AR6951) has an unloaded weight of 6.37 pounds and is 34.7 inches long. It must also be suspect for failing the "sleeker than a Hipoint" test.

[JohnKSa]

The bolt looks to be heavy enough for 10mm, all it would need is a heavier recoil spring.

I'm a little skeptical at this point. The bolt needs to balance the momentum of the round, the spring force is a smaller part of the equation than it might seem.

With muzzle momentums for the top end 10mm loadings running about 50% higher than the top end 9mm loadings, the bolt velocity (with the same weight bolt) will also be about 50% faster and that means that the breech will open early. A stronger spring could slow that down somewhat. I'm just not sure that a simple boltface switch and another spring would make the gun safe/functional in 10mm.

[TruthTellers]

Hmm, yes there may need to be more weight, but maybe not that much.

As for size, they could use something heavier than steel. Tungsten is the least expensive metal I can think of that's significantly heavier than steel, about 2.5 to 3 times heavier. If Ruger was thinking ahead, they may have put a hollow area inside the bolt that they could later fill with a piece of Tungsten.

From MAC's video, there looks to be an Aluminum plate located underneath where the recoil spring assembly fits onto the bolt. That could be a "filler" plate, something intentionally lighter so it can run a 9mm blowback reliably.

If Ruger were to make a 10mm, they can replace that Aluminum plate with a Tungsten one, which, along with a stiffer spring, could make up the weight difference.

Or Ruger could be really crazy and put a DI system in a takedown carbine.

[stagpanther]

The blow-back 10mm I just built is also patterned to be able to be used with 45acp and 40 S&W--probably could work with a few others in that range. The 9mm is a step down--but I don't see functionally much difference in the over-all mechanics, I suspect it's nothing more than a simple step down in bolt and buffer weight (and a marginally different bolt face) and maybe firing pin and buffer spring power. Right now the pistol-cartridge carbine evolution--if there is such a thing--seems to rely on backward compatibility to existing parts/magazines etc but somebody could easily design one IMO that could be modular and switched out to multiple calibers in just a few minutes--especially if they divorce the design from the notion of back-wards compatibility.

[gc70]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

From MAC's video, there looks to be an Aluminum plate located underneath where the recoil spring assembly fits onto the bolt. That could be a "filler" plate, something intentionally lighter so it can run a 9mm blowback reliably.

If Ruger were to make a 10mm, they can replace that Aluminum plate with a Tungsten one, which, along with a stiffer spring, could make up the weight difference.

The bolt already contains a tungsten weight according to Ruger's website:

Dead blow action features a custom tungsten dead blow weight that shortens bolt travel and reduces felt recoil and muzzle rise.

[Geezerbiker]

The can keep it. Blow back carbines tend to mash rounds as they stuff them in the chamber. I had the same problem with a 9mm Camp Carbine around 25 years ago...

Tony

[stagpanther]

The can keep it. Blow back carbines tend to mash rounds as they stuff them in the chamber.

Mine does--I agree with this--but I also think the design can be tweaked to minimize the cartridge mashing, lose the "glock angle" and get the cartridge fed into the magazine with better control.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by gc70

The bolt already contains a tungsten weight according to Ruger's website:

Go figure.