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Old May 9, 2018, 06:39 PM   #26
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Maybe if pass through penetration is your goal you are absent a conscience.
Cheapshot,

Yep, you got me, no conscious. It's a poor man who tears down the man when he can't tear down his argument.

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Old May 9, 2018, 06:43 PM   #27
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One man's over penetration is another man's adequate penetration.
This is just awesome, it clarifies everything.When i was a teenage stick figure standing in the street wearing a T shirt, a .32 acp probably could have gone right through me, and gone through a wall behind me. My gargantuan lard butted cousin, the humungous sumo chump could suck up a dozen .32 rounds and maybe not even have them hit a vein. this man's overpenetration is my cousin's underpenetration.


Take a look at a packer cut beef brisket, look at the inch thick layer of hard tallow, feel the toughness of that meat, then think about the eight inch layer of lard that plenty of people are hauling around these days.

Do I want a 9mm bullet that will expand to an inch, and sacrifice all of the momentum to deforming the bullet and then displacing the first six or eight inches of tissue, before it even reaches the vital organs?

No, not at all. I want that bullet to go into him far enough to reach and possibly even sever his spine. I like expansion, and we can have that too. Every quality round available now has several features that allow wide mushrooms and flutes that allow it to retain a higher SD than a normal bullet. It gives good expansion while still allowing an extra inch or so of penetration.

So, to my thoughts, the idea of uncontrolled, random expansion, just for the sake of expansion, is flawed.

Every time I see these discussions I am treated to the unwanted mental image of tony, wearing that god awful fake leather jacket, sneaking a handful of dirty magazines into his mother's house. HOW IN THE WORLD ARE YOU GOING TO DEAL WITH THAT?

It would make me very sad if I wound up having no choice but to shoot some skinny little rat of a guy and have someone injured behind him as the bullet blows through his back. realistically speaking, though, how often does that really happen? Out of the thousands of rounds fired in combat situations, how many people are accidentally shot by either police or civilians who had to use their weapons for defense? That, I assure you, is not common. I cannot really remember having heard of a bullet injuring a bystander after popping through another.

I believe that most of the collateral damage incidents involve just randomly spraying rounds in crowded places.
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Old May 9, 2018, 08:42 PM   #28
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... I want that bullet to go into him far enough to ... sever his spine...
So, in COM terms, penetrate the sternum, various innards, and continue with enough momentum to pulverize the vertebrae. Sounds like a worthy objective.
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Old May 10, 2018, 12:14 PM   #29
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So, in COM terms, penetrate the sternum, various innards, and continue with enough momentum to pulverize the vertebrae. Sounds like a worthy objective.
Except that with a shot that hits below the ribcage (yes, low shots happen in gunfights) you will blow right through the intestines and out the other side. Then we will be saying it over penetrated.

There is no free lunch. Trying to get enough penetration, without over penetration, in the myriad of possible body structures to deal with is a daunting task. Thats why so many have struggled for so long on the subject.

IMHO, the FBI has done its homework in the lab and come up with a useful compromise. Is it perfect? NO. But gunfights never are. Mtpl hits center mass with a ctg that meets the FBI standard will give you the best chance of stopping the threat, baring a CNS hit
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Old May 10, 2018, 01:17 PM   #30
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There is no free lunch. Trying to get enough penetration, without over penetration, in the myriad of possible body structures to deal with is a daunting task. Thats why so many have struggled for so long on the subject.
Correct. But it seems some have no concern for being responsible enough to even try. But rather plan on a complete pass through without regard for the possible consequences.
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Old May 10, 2018, 02:50 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by briandg View Post
This is just awesome, it clarifies everything.When i was a teenage stick figure standing in the street wearing a T shirt, a .32 acp probably could have gone right through me, and gone through a wall behind me. My gargantuan lard butted cousin, the humungous sumo chump could suck up a dozen .32 rounds and maybe not even have them hit a vein. this man's overpenetration is my cousin's underpenetration.


Take a look at a packer cut beef brisket, look at the inch thick layer of hard tallow, feel the toughness of that meat, then think about the eight inch layer of lard that plenty of people are hauling around these days.

Do I want a 9mm bullet that will expand to an inch, and sacrifice all of the momentum to deforming the bullet and then displacing the first six or eight inches of tissue, before it even reaches the vital organs?

It would make me very sad if I wound up having no choice but to shoot some skinny little rat of a guy and have someone injured behind him as the bullet blows through his back. realistically speaking, though, how often does that really happen? Out of the thousands of rounds fired in combat situations, how many people are accidentally shot by either police or civilians who had to use their weapons for defense? That, I assure you, is not common. I cannot really remember having heard of a bullet injuring a bystander after popping through another.
Thank you, couldn't have said it better, myself. Can't even imagine a scenario, where
somebody would be defensively shooting, in a crowd of pregnant women and children.

But let's digress to Sumo-boy, for a second. Morbidly obese people are going to have a very negative reaction to being shot; that aside, penetration could be anything from straight
through a neck or arm, to down the arm, and into the body, even the best pistol round penetration is not going to go all the way through 30+ inches of muscle and flab. So
maximum expansion may cause nerve damage at a critical point, with the onset of
massive pain, if the expansion hits a nerve crowded area, like some areas of the hand and forearm.

Anybody care to weigh in with experience of the effectiveness of a person, after they had been shot through an outstretched hand and arm? Let's go one further, a FMJ may penetrate further into the outstretched arm, hitting shoulder nerves, other body nerves, and causing further incapacitation,
or not.

Bodies are different, situations are different, and, if in the rare instance
you get into an defensive shoot, no mathematical formula is going to
dictate a BG's reaction, how the bullet's going to injure the said BG's tissue,
or his determination, and resolve, or lack of it, after being shot.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is, foremost, we're dealing with pistol rounds, which don't produce the predictable massive hydro-shock style
wounding of a rifle caliber, so IMO, it's a personal choice, either of which
could be great OR lousy, given the proper circumstances, at any given time.

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Old May 10, 2018, 03:13 PM   #32
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Correct. But it seems some have no concern for being responsible enough to even try. But rather plan on a complete pass through without regard for the possible consequences.
Then you mitigate the risk thru tactics, use the appropriate bullet selection and carry on.
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Old May 10, 2018, 03:34 PM   #33
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Which all sounds good in print.

But how about a situation where a guy is raising pistol. You fire defensively.
The round, which is expansive defense ammo, hits him in the chest, and expands,
and the guy drops like a sack of potatoes.

Same scenario the guy raises his arm in the way of the bullet, it hits the fat of his forearm,
then deflects thru the bicep, without expanding or hitting any nerves or anything vital.

Same scenario, you use FMJ, hit him in the chest, full penetration and out the back, hit
nothing vital, he feels it, but keeps on coming.

Same scenario, you shoot that FMJ into his outstretched arm, through the hand, wrist,
upper arm, and into the chest hitting nerves all the way, and causing incapacitating pain,
the guy passes out, and falls down.

It's all the same situation, in two cases expanding ammo, two with FMJ, and
one each was success, and a failure, depending upon timing and circumstances.
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Old May 11, 2018, 03:49 PM   #34
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Which all sounds good in print.
And in real life.

Quote:
But how about a situation where a guy is raising pistol. You fire defensively.
The round, which is expansive defense ammo, hits him in the chest, and expands,
and the guy drops like a sack of potatoes.
Then you are done.

Quote:
Same scenario the guy raises his arm in the way of the bullet, it hits the fat of his forearm,
then deflects thru the bicep, without expanding or hitting any nerves or anything vital.
Fire until the threat goes away.

Quote:
Same scenario, you use FMJ, hit him in the chest, full penetration and out the back, hit
nothing vital, he feels it, but keeps on coming.
The closest thing to FMJ I carry is a 200 grn hard cast DEWC in my 44 Bulldog @ 1000 fps, it does not deflect. Fire until the threat is gone.

Quote:
Same scenario, you shoot that FMJ into his outstretched arm, through the hand, wrist,
upper arm, and into the chest hitting nerves all the way, and causing incapacitating pain,
the guy passes out, and falls down.
Then you are done

Quote:
It's all the same situation, in two cases expanding ammo, two with FMJ, and
one each was success, and a failure, depending upon timing and circumstances.
No, you are just being argumentative. You illustrated why this subject develops such discussion. I personally carry calibers and rounds that I know are successful on the street in a multitude of shootings and a multitude of different scenarios. The ones to me are magnum revolvers, 357 Sig, 40 S&W loaded with light for caliber bullets moving fast, 9mm +P+.
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Old May 11, 2018, 06:10 PM   #35
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even the best pistol round penetration is not going to go all the way through 30+ inches of muscle and flab.
The BEST pistol rounds will.

But they aren't common street carry, because the recoil too much, and penetrate too much, etc....

Ask the hog hunters, ask the deer hunters, about how much penetration the BEST pistol rounds can have. You might be surprised.



Quote:
Same scenario, you use FMJ, hit him in the chest, full penetration and out the back, hit
nothing vital, he feels it, but keeps on coming.
OK, but you left out this one...
Same scenario, you use FMJ, hit him in the chest, full penetration and out the back, hit something vital, he feels it, and drops like a rock.

And, as far as the pain from a gunshot?? Don't count on it. Maybe it becomes a factor, but not one you can count on. Knew a cop who had been shot in the arm during a gun fight. Now, granted it was "only a .22 Magnum", but the bullet entered his arm near the elbow, skidded down his arm, through the rear of his hand and stuck in the wood grip of his revolver.

After the fight was over, he noticed he was bleeding.... (no pain, no shock noticed during the fight)

Knew a guy shot with a 160gr SCW .357 slug on top of a stiff charge of H110. Struck in the shin, bullet traveled downwards, shattering 17cm of bone (and I mean shattered, no piece larger than 3/8") Said he never felt any pain, until after he was in the emergency room. Seeing the blood pouring out did make him woozy, though...

Wife's uncle was shot, in the heart with a .22 as a teen. Bullet lodged in the heart muscle wall. Docs refused to remove it, too dangerous...

He did die. 60+ years later!! (and NOT from the bullet)
and he was 300LB+ nearly his entire adult life.

So, yeah, maybe you have to stop a rabid ferret that goes 5'2" and a buck 20, or maybe you have to stop the cape buffalo who only missed out on being an NFL linebacker because he ran just a little to slow to qualify...

SO, carry something that won't blow through the little guy (to protect all those innocent bystanders...) and maybe that big guy absorbs your entire ammo supply THEN breaks your neck, (because none of your rounds penetrated deeply enough to reach a vital spot) before bleeding out....

Or maybe something else happens. My crystal ball is really cloudy about what will happen. One thing I do know though, is that I can't call a time out and ask my attacker to wait while I switch to an appropriate gun & load for their bodymass.

I can tell you that you can find documented cases where everything used has worked and where that same thing has failed.

There is no magic bullet.

Carry what you feel best carrying, I'll do the same.

Just don't hide behind the guy I have to shoot!
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Old May 11, 2018, 07:30 PM   #36
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Ah, 44 AMP, you have no conscience.

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Old May 11, 2018, 08:00 PM   #37
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even the best pistol round penetration is not going to go all the way through 30+ inches of muscle and flab.
Best at what? Self defense or hunting. Solid bullets in 10mm, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 44 magnum have penetration in animals measured in feet.
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Old May 12, 2018, 12:31 AM   #38
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So, how do you control the amount of penetration when you can possibly meet varying amount of resistance to bullet penetration? In other words, a shot below the rib cage would find only soft tissue and little bullet resistance. You design a bullet that will penetrate in that environment without exiting and then use it for a shot that say hits a rib or the humerus, and you have a bullet that probably won't reach vital organs. On the other end, since most serious self defense ammo has a hollowpoint bullet, the clothing worn by the target can plug up the hollowpoint not allowing it to expand and basically turning the bullet into a solid with enhanced penetration. The fact is, you can't have the same amount of penetration in all circumstances. All you can do is ensure that you will have adequate penetration in a worst case scenario, which is something the FBI learned after the Miami Shootout and is why they set a standard for the amount of penetration, which in many cases will result in an exit wound.







Of course it's the responsibility of any shooter to minimize the possibility of missing the target, but in the heat of an active shooting situation with adrenalin flowing, it's easier said than done. Witness the 20% hit ratio in the police shooting I referenced in my last post. Police typically qualify twice a year with little to no shooting in between, so you can't expect much. Please explain how by "not intentionally using ammo that will over penetrate" you reduce the possibility of missing the target? Cheapshooter, while your sentiment about over penetration is noble, the plain fact that you cannot control the amount of penetration leaves you with this basic question: in a self defense situation with your life on the line, what are the possible consequences of a bullet that fails to penetrate adequately .vs a bullet that completely penetrates? Again, just MHO.



Don


Just a comment on clothing. I see this as being a limited issue, but better determined by location. I live in Florida. So 8 months out of the year? Maybe even 12...nobody is wearing clothing that will impact a hollowpoint from a 9mm or larger. Not with modern ammo. I know I know...fbi Miami...but the bullets used were from 1986 or prior. Hollowpoint .38 specials and crappy 9mm ammo from the same time too. So not a good example. Not when we look at modern stuff.

Maybe if you live where it gets REALLY cold...I can see this being a concern. But only on something thicker than sweatshirts and lighter jackets.

Anyway. You may not be able to control the penetration. But you can pick the bullets you use. A .45 or 9mm instead of a .44 magnum. And a proper defensive round that you test that and doesn’t regularly pass through all testing material as if it weren’t there. :shrug:


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Old May 12, 2018, 08:12 AM   #39
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Maybe if you live where it gets REALLY cold...I can see this being a concern. But only on something thicker than sweatshirts and lighter jackets.
It does not matter. The heaviest clothes you can think of are not armor.
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Old May 12, 2018, 12:14 PM   #40
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It does not matter. The heaviest clothes you can think of are not armor.
And yet there was a police shooting in NYC not too long ago, where it was reported that several (4 out of 6, I think) of the approved police 9mm rounds were stopped by the Carhartt jacket of the guy they shot.

In the real world, bullets do strange things. Unexpected things, sometimes. And no matter how well they perform in testing, sometimes, in reality, they perform differently.

Yes, I have no conscience , at least not in the way you are expecting. I WANT that round that Indiana Jones shoots through 3 Nazi lined up one behind the other, because that way, I know it will do the job on one, if I do my job right.

(and no, I'm not talking about 9mm ball as a primary choice, I'm talking about the penetration from any angle being sufficient, and then some.

There is a difference between as low as possible and ALARA (as low as reasonably achievable). You want a round that reduces risk due to complete penetration to be as low as possible. To do that means incomplete penetration. While that decreases the risk to people behind the bad guy, it increases the risk to the people in FRONT of the bad guy (meaning, me)

The way I see it, if you're a police officer, you are getting paid to take that risk. I'm not.

Its your butt, so its your call.
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Old May 12, 2018, 02:05 PM   #41
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And yet there was a police shooting in NYC not too long ago, where it was reported that several (4 out of 6, I think) of the approved police 9mm rounds were stopped by the Carhartt jacket of the guy they shot.
Although that is what was initially reported, we should have immediately been highly suspicious that the initial report was in error since we know that self-defense ammunition is tested to insure that it will penetrate heavy clothing and still retain enough energy/momentum to still penetrate adequately into the target.

So what happened?

Two of the bullets that passed through the jacket, into the target, through the target, exited the target and then failed to penetrate OUT the BACK of the jacket.

In other words, they provided not just adequate performance, but IDEAL performance. They penetrated the target through-and-through and exited without sufficient energy/momentum to injure anyone else.

https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/0...bullets-false/
"The bullets cops fired at an unhinged, knife-waving stagehand in a deadly off-Broadway confrontation last month were not defective — as one report had erroneously suggested, police said Thursday.

On May 18, an NYPD sergeant and an officer fired nine shots at Garry Conrad, after the enraged man approached three cops with an 8-inch blade on Eighth Ave. and 49th St. Conrad did not survive.

Another outlet’s erroneous report suggested two bullets didn’t penetrate Conrad’s non-bullet-proof Carhartt jacket, but Inspector Emanuel Katranakis on Thursday reiterated what police told the Daily News at the time.

“The ammunition and the projectiles functioned as designed,” Katranakis said.

The bullets did not penetrate the back of Conrad’s jacket."
Let's not let confirmation bias get the best of us, especially when we have the evidence and knowledge to defeat it.

1. Any ammunition so defectively weak that it is incapable of penetrating heavy clothing also wouldn't be able to cycle the slide of a semi-auto pistol.

2. Premium self-defense ammunition is tested to insure proper penetration, even AFTER passing through intermediate barriers such as heavy clothing, sheet metal, auto glass, plywood, drywall, etc.
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Old May 12, 2018, 02:31 PM   #42
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Too many posts on these threads turn into blue sky, straw man, crystal ball, one in a thousand, make you believe in god or the devil scenarios and past events.

we discuss the likelihood that a casull will go through a suitcase, pass through a bad guy, then possibly cause injury or damage. There is a single fact that just lurks around the corner as we do so.

That single fact is that no matter how much effort we put into prediction and analysis of past events, every round fired at meat will have it's own agenda, it might even manage to miss. then, every piece of meat has its own agenda.

Chaos rules. Nothing anyone can do can trump it. If someone is worried about shooting pregnant women at a mall, the best way to avoid that is to not shoot. True, the bad guy may throw a bullet right through your forehead, but you can die with a clear conscience. Oh, wait, unless your inaction leads to the pregnant woman's death?

I've done my best, set up a weapon system that I expect to work as well as anything else I could carry. I have a pretty good understanding of what I should and should not do, and how to do it. I could spend tens of thousands of dollars on training, better guns, better ammo, training ammo, range fees, and MAYBE that would affect any shooting I get into. maybe. I'm going to put my faith in God or random chaos to keep me out of trouble, and my own abilities, the quality of my weapon. Beyond that, I'm going to hope that they guy I shoot is going to fall down motionless when I hit him and that nobody else gets hurt. If I have time and the presence of mind, I'm going to pray as I pull the trigger.
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Old May 12, 2018, 02:43 PM   #43
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another point that was made earlier, 44amp stated that there are no magic bullets. No smart bullets. Every bullet out there is just as dumb as a lump of lead. (see what I did there? that was a joke, son! laugh, i tell ya, laugh!) There will be failures. there will be successes beyond the wildest expectations. Someone out there has killed an elephant with a bow, cavemen killed mammoths with rocks and spears. Those were far from ideal. Mammoth isn't exactly gelatin, either. Any person who returned from a mammoth hunt with a piece of tenderloin was simply very fortunate.

Point being that bullets may be as dumb as a club, but we hand picked that projectile weapon and designed it to work best at its purposes. Every dead caveman is looking at us down through history with envy. he got stomped into goo because his club wasn't smart.

take what you have into the situation that you are in, and even a stupid bullet is better than the smartest club in the history of mankind.
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Old May 13, 2018, 12:41 PM   #44
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I note that there's no databases on "one spear stops" for mammoth....

And especially, no data on how many hunters were lost (killed/crippled) per mammoth....

Thanks JohnKSa for the actual facts that generated the headline I remembered.

"Over" and "excess" penetration are value judgements.

"Complete" penetration is a statement of fact, and does not change due to different situations, the way a value judgement can.

I look at it the way I look at a defensive weapon, and a number of other things in life...

"it's better to have it, and not need it, than to need it, and not have it!!"

And, yes, I'm heartless enough to accept the microscopically small risk to others, in order to have it when (if) I need it.

but, that's just me...
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Old May 13, 2018, 01:14 PM   #45
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And, yes, I'm heartless enough to accept the microscopically small risk to others, in order to have it when (if) I need it.
the risk that someday you or I will have to go through that entire chain of decisions and events and having it lead to serious injury to a bystander is probably only measurable on the nanoscale.

just one time i'd like to see documentation of a pass through injuring a bystander badly enough to make me regret my choice of using a 9mm round that was calibrated to a foot of jello.

like you, that's a risk that i will willingly take in order to save a life.

Did i ever mention the guy who kept his .454 casull in his night stand, and considered it to be the only option that he had for home defense? He lived in an apartment, at least he claimed to. That's a whole different level of foolishness. or one heck of a lie. he was capable of both.
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Old May 13, 2018, 01:44 PM   #46
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So, how do you control the amount of penetration when you can possibly meet varying amount of resistance to bullet penetration?
Those of us that hunt large game have a similar problem. The average hunter will take deer sized game anywhere from 80# to 240#. Penetration and expansion of the same bullet will be quite different on both. Hitting that 240 pounder squarely in the shoulder will also impact penetration and expansion differently than hitting that same deer behind the shoulder, between the ribs. So we pick bullets that will give us the best overall performance for most of the scenarios we think may occur. When it comes to SD tho, I'd rather error on the side of penetration than expansion. I'm responsible for all of the bullets that leave my barrel, and I understand the consequences. If there are innocent bystanders in the way or behind the BG, odds are, I ain't gonna shoot.
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Old May 13, 2018, 06:04 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by USSR View Post
So, how do you control the amount of penetration when you can possibly meet varying amount of resistance to bullet penetration?

Quote:
Those of us that hunt large game have a similar problem. The average hunter will take deer sized game anywhere from 80# to 240#. Penetration and expansion of the same bullet will be quite different on both. Hitting that 240 pounder squarely in the shoulder will also impact penetration and expansion differently than hitting that same deer behind the shoulder, between the ribs. So we pick bullets that will give us the best overall performance for most of the scenarios we think may occur. When it comes to SD tho, I'd rather error on the side of penetration than expansion. I'm responsible for all of the bullets that leave my barrel, and I understand the consequences. If there are innocent bystanders in the way or behind the BG, odds are, I ain't gonna shoot.
I had this problem when I hunted deer with a .357 Magnum. A shot thru the rib cage was no problem, but a shot involving a more "meaty" area resulted in a lack of penetration. I solved it by going to the .45 Colt. It don't run as fast, but darn near nothing stops that bullet.

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