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January 16, 2020, 11:56 AM | #1 |
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Uugggghhhhhh Stupid Federal Laws and Why We Don’t Need Any More
Just a rant, that is all. I understand the desire to try and thwart straw purchases. I really do. But the absolutist principle and letter of the law at times prevents peaceful citizens from doing something they should be able to do by any rights.
Case in point. I’m currently an activated reservist and deployed. Occasionally I peruse armslist in my home area just to see what’s out there. Well, I happen to have found a couple of No 4 Enfields local to my home at a really good price. The problem is buying a firearm without being there is... well... not possible. I could get my son to pick it up for me, but very technically he would not be the actual person for which the gun is meant for. Nor would it be a bona fide gift if I gave him the money for it (which I would). The only unquestionably legal way I see to handle it would be to have him buy it and do the transfer through an ffl. Then transfer it to me through an ffl when I get back. That’s a lot of hassle, and on top of it I would want to ask the seller questions and get more pictures as my son isn’t into collecting and doesn’t know all of hat I’m looking for. As soon as I start emailing but my son shows up, to ffl or otherwise, that’ll probably shut that down. It’s one more reason why we don’t need any more laws on the books. There shouldn’t be a thing in the world wrong with me sending my son to buy a rifle for me and hold it until I get home. But it’s against the letter of the law. Laws are often made without common sense provisions to prevent such impediments. And they often have no appreciable affect on the very behaviors they are intended to prevent. Just a rant, and another argument against UBCs. I get it UBCs aren’t affecting my personal situation, but how many unintended consequences will they have?
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January 16, 2020, 12:07 PM | #2 |
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[Lawyers watch this subforum and might know this] Could you give him a power of attorney, then he purchase them in your name on your behalf?
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January 16, 2020, 12:31 PM | #3 | |||
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Introduce the BATF, an FFL and the 4473, and these ordinary rules don't apply. Significantly, the person who signs the 4473 asserts that he is the true buyer, and that's never true where the person signing has a POA or is purchasing for someone himself entitled to purchase. Yes, it's a stupid rule. However it's not as if it makes sense to charge people a tax for suppressors either, so we are already in a context of arbitrary rules. Quote:
Of course, none of that solves your problem of a long distance purchase of a non-fungible item. This comes up for car collectors too.
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January 16, 2020, 12:32 PM | #4 | |||
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If the gun you're looking at is being sold by someone not physically near your home, it seems to me that you have two legal options:
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January 16, 2020, 02:53 PM | #5 | ||
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I toyed with the idea of paying up front and having the seller hold the rifle if I liked what I saw in pictures. I may. Or more likely I’ll probably just be patient and wait until I get home. And likely not find as good of a deal but I digress. It was just a rant really. Quote:
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January 16, 2020, 03:01 PM | #6 |
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To clarify, both rifles that I’m interested in appear to be private sellers. So if I did decide to commit to one, the option would be to have them take it to an ffl and have it held for me there after I pay them. Or just pay the seller to hold it. But still I digress, I’ll look around when I’m a little closer to getting home.
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January 16, 2020, 03:07 PM | #7 |
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I thought family members could gift a gun between each other without it being a "Straw Purchase". If I remember it right the son could purchase the gun and then gift/give it to his father when he returns. Maybe I misread the article since it was quite a while ago or it was a state-specific issue.
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January 16, 2020, 03:14 PM | #8 |
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It is possible but it has to be a bona fide gift. If I reimburse my son any amount for it, it does not qualify.
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January 16, 2020, 04:34 PM | #9 |
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Everyone should be aware that the federal government successfully prosecuted a police officer who was not a prohibited person and used his law enforcement discount to purchase a firearm for his uncle (also not a prohibited person) who then reimbursed him for the purchase. The feds fought this at both the district court and appeals level. Edited to add a link to a biased but factually correct explanation of the Abramski case: https://www.npr.org/2014/06/16/32265...-gun-purchases
Meanwhile, the same government was telling FFLs to allow straw purchases to Mexican drug cartels and then using those same purchases to justify more restrictions on FFLs: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/documen...n-regulations/ Criminals aren’t the target. The government already has the power to imprison them and take their stuff. Criminals are basically governmental contractors or applying for that status. YOU are the target. Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; January 16, 2020 at 05:24 PM. |
January 16, 2020, 04:49 PM | #10 | |
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5whiskey is trying to understand and comply with the laws. Laws are written using words, and words have meanings. Let's not try to stretch those words beyond any reasonable approximation of what they mean. If you go to the BATFE web site, they have a FAQ that addresses situations encountered by non-licensees (that's those of us who aren't FFLs): https://www.atf.gov/qa-category/unlicensed-persons The case mentioned by Bartholomew Roberts in post #9 should serve as an example.
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January 16, 2020, 04:49 PM | #11 |
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Let's take this one step further. Is there anything that says the 4473 has to be filled out in front of the FFL? Meaning, the OP fills out the 4473, signs it, and returns it to the receiving FFL. At this point, HE (the OP) has paid for the guns, filled out the 4437 and is in fact the actual purchaser.
At that point can the son simply "pick up" the guns for his Dad? |
January 16, 2020, 04:57 PM | #12 |
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How is 5whiskey going to fill out the 4473 if he's deployed out of country?
I am NOT suggesting that doing so would be legal (I'm pretty certain it would not), but I don't see any way it could be done. In any case, if the FFL had a 4473 signed by 5whiskey as the transferee, the FFL couldn't then transfer the firearm to someone else. That would make the son the transferee. As I wrote above, "Laws are written using words, and words have meanings. Let's not try to stretch those words beyond any reasonable approximation of what they mean."
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January 16, 2020, 09:26 PM | #13 | |
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Aren't the guns in question C&R? He could get his own 03 FFL for $30 and skip a lot of this crap. I miss 1967
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January 16, 2020, 10:06 PM | #14 | |
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January 17, 2020, 01:38 AM | #15 | |
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January 17, 2020, 03:03 AM | #16 | |
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Seems to me we are talking about the various nuances of possession, ownership, transfer, and delivery. I see no need to do anything that even remotely skirts the "strawman purchase" law. I see no reason why you couldn't buy the rifles the same way it is legally done with any purchase "out of state", internet or whatever. You need an FFL in your home state willing to receive them and process the transfer. you buy the gun from the owner, he takes it to his ffl, they ship it to your ffl, and then you pick it up, filling out the required forms/background check at the time you physically take possession. All you should need is an FFL willing to hold YOUR PROPERTY until your deployment is over and you can personally take possession, complying with the legal transfer requirements to take possession at that time. The dealer can certainly charge you a reasonable storage fee. If they don't want to hold it for you, find a different FFL who will. I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, its just what I see as the common sense way to stay within the law. Worth what you paid for it, or possibly, less.. First thing to do is find the FFL you want to use on your end, and make sure they understand what you need and are willing to do it. After that, it should be no different than any other non-face to face purchase, just with a time delay before actual delivery. As long as this is understood and arranged for in advance I don't see where it would be a problem. Legal eagles, if I'm wrong about this, PLEASE correct me for the benefit of us all. Thanks.
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