Legal Use of Force Can Get You Fired

MrBot · December 27, 2019, 06:23 PM

I was at a business I've been to many times recently performing my regular duties when another man doing the same job as me but working for another company became enraged while the two of us were in the business parking lot. The individual claimed I'd parked my vehicle in a manner that prohibited his driving his vehicle from the lot--iow, he said my vehicle was in his way. That was not the case. We were both legally parked. He threatened to beat me up getting literally right on top of me. I pepper-sprayed him. As a result the business has banned me from their property under the claim that I had battered the guy by using the spray. In the mean time my employer has moved me from that higher paying account. It easily looks as though I'll be looking at a 40% pay cut if I stay with my current employer. The job I had at the higher pay rate is kind of specialized & I doubt I could get that kind of pay by going with another employer. So let this be a warning: Even though in your lawyer's opinion you're well within the law in defending yourself that is not to say you will avoid a major loss in the event you do so. Everyone I've talked to, including the responding police officer, has said I had every right to defend myself in this case yet here I am looking at a major drop in income.

JERRYS. · December 27, 2019, 06:28 PM

against the law and against policy are not always the same.

ammo.crafter · December 27, 2019, 06:30 PM

Are these restrictions in written form at your place of employment?
Do they classify this spray as a weapon?
Consult an employment attorney.
Do you belong to a union?

There are many things you can do

MrBot · December 27, 2019, 06:38 PM

My employer has no restrictions against the spray. I'm being told I'm off the account because I can't service that individual customer anymore. And, yes, I've checked it out: The customer has every right to ban me. Aamof, my lawyer has told me they could ban me for literally any reason (other than what law prohibits such as discrimination due to race, religion etc..that sort of thing). We are not unionized.

USNRet93 · December 28, 2019, 08:56 AM

Quote:

As a result the business has banned me from their property under the claim that I had battered the guy by using the spray.

Did the guy that started the whole thing get banned from the company's property?

Quote:

In the mean time my employer has moved me from that higher paying account.

Sounds like the company you serviced removed you from their account..not just banned you from their property. Can't 'service' them if you cant go onto their property.

No recourse from your boss to the company's 'boss'??

**OldMarksman** · December 28, 2019, 09:13 AM

Next time that happens, move the car.

Bartholomew Roberts · December 28, 2019, 09:31 AM

As I frequently explain to clients, just because you have a legal right to do something, doesn’t make that something a good idea.

Aikibiker · December 28, 2019, 09:40 AM

Sue the guy you sprayed and his employer (since he attacked you on their dime) for loss of income and infliction of emotional distress.

You could also try suing the client, since they allowed a crazy guy to attack you on their property. Several courts have held that businesses can be sued for failure of security to keep people safe. My old employer was sued, and lost, after a lady had her arm broken by a purse snatcher in their parking lot. That might impact your current jobthough.

mehavey · December 28, 2019, 10:06 AM

Everybody involved can get sued.

The only absolute, however, is that the customer can declare
anyone they want to be PNG'd ...and the Account is forfeit.

T`ain't fair.... but it is fact.

MrBot · December 28, 2019, 12:44 PM

Hah! That's ez for you to say OldMarksman. You weren't there. He never gave me time to do anything. I coulda ran but he was younger & prbly faster than me. Plus, where would I have ran too? ..prbly wouldn't have sat well with the business had I allowed a nut like him to chase me & follow me into their bldg. And, no, no penalty was assessed on the other guy. The logic was that I had sprayed him. It didn't matter that he'd assaulted me. In the eyes of the individual making the call I was in the wrong. Bad call in my book.

HiBC · December 28, 2019, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Hah! That's ez for you to say OldMarksman.

Mr Bot :

I have no argument with your original statement. Lawful self defense can get you fired. Gas station/convenience store/etc often have policies of no resistance to robbery. You might beat downthe robber and hold him for police and get fired.

Life is not fair. Don't expect it to be.

It seems like you and the angry guy are competition. It might be there is more going on than parking.

Perhaps Old Marksman's suggestion would not have been practical. OK. I think the point is either A) Pepper spray was the best and only optiom ,or B)There may have been another option. Like de-escalation. Or turning around and walking back into the building...maybe making a complaint. The alleged "bad guy" gets banned.

Whatever,I was not there.

It might be there is a line that must be crossed before you spray someone.His bad temper might not have been enough.

It might be your pepper spray was a premature power play "Take this,Worm! "
You might not get fired for repelling an assault. Parking lots often have cameras. What is on video?

I get suspicious when someone tells me "I am an innocent victim who was a perfect angel"

If you had no other choice,and you did the best you could,and you got fired....I've been fired. Shrug,get over it. Move on.Or,sales are dog eat dog.You go make a new client. Sounds like you got moved,not fired.

Other than that,what is it you are asking for? What do you need?

An Oprah group hug? A Kleenex? Life happens.

You want to make the ride,get in the saddle. Sometimes you get bucked off.

You ever watched a toddler learn to walk? How many times a day do they land on their butt? Then what do they do? The climb the drapes or the coffee table or they just get back up.
A toddler. Humbling.

mehavey · December 28, 2019, 01:39 PM

The only entity the OP has action against is his accused assailant.

But wait . . .
Lacking witnesses/video, the only evidence is injury to that accused assailant.
He said/She said with forensics supporting only one side.

What's not to like ?

KyJim · December 28, 2019, 10:46 PM

I suspect those encouraging you to sue everyone are not attorneys. And your employer might not like it if you sue a good client

JERRYS. · December 28, 2019, 11:16 PM

he said she said law suit that won't go anywhere. I agree with next time moving the damn car. when you are a guest you need to be more humble than when you are the host.

American Man · December 29, 2019, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiBC

Mr Bot :

I have no argument with your original statement. Lawful self defense can get you fired. Gas station/convenience store/etc often have policies of no resistance to robbery. You might beat downthe robber and hold him for police and get fired.

Life is not fair. Don't expect it to be.

It seems like you and the angry guy are competition. It might be there is more going on than parking.

Perhaps Old Marksman's suggestion would not have been practical. OK. I think the point is either A) Pepper spray was the best and only optiom ,or B)There may have been another option. Like de-escalation. Or turning around and walking back into the building...maybe making a complaint. The alleged "bad guy" gets banned.

Whatever,I was not there.

It might be there is a line that must be crossed before you spray someone.His bad temper might not have been enough.

It might be your pepper spray was a premature power play "Take this,Worm! "
You might not get fired for repelling an assault. Parking lots often have cameras. What is on video?

I get suspicious when someone tells me "I am an innocent victim who was a perfect angel"

If you had no other choice,and you did the best you could,and you got fired....I've been fired. Shrug,get over it. Move on.Or,sales are dog eat dog.You go make a new client. Sounds like you got moved,not fired.

Other than that,what is it you are asking for? What do you need?

An Oprah group hug? A Kleenex? Life happens.

You want to make the ride,get in the saddle. Sometimes you get bucked off.

You ever watched a toddler learn to walk? How many times a day do they land on their butt? Then what do they do? The climb the drapes or the coffee table or they just get back up.
A toddler. Humbling.

He stated "So let this be a warning: Even though in your lawyer's opinion you're well within the law in defending yourself that is not to say you will avoid a major loss in the event you do so."

What is with all your garbage about needing an Oprah hug? or Kleenex? It's not like he started a gofundme page. But then again, maybe all he needs is to hear your self righteous garbage about toddlers climbing up drapes to get back on track.

Nathan · December 29, 2019, 09:48 AM

Personally, I would try some frank, but absolutely calm conversation about the incident with my company owner first and ask to have a 3 way with the other company owner.

My points would be simple:
-I’m a on time employee producing the highest quality work of this specialized nature that only I can do the way I’m doing it.
-The other guy attacked me and I felt intimidated, threatened, feared for my life.
-Let’s work together to keep the workplace safe and harassment free. There are jerks everywhere and they create liabilities for good folks like the 3 of us.

I might try to run this by an employment attorney first to tune it up, if it did not delay my response by more than a day or 2.

**44 AMP** · December 29, 2019, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Personally, I would try some frank, but absolutely calm conversation about the incident with....

You can certainly try this, but I wouldn't put any great faith in it working out any differently.

Simply put, you were involved in a violent confrontation on the customer's premises. Over what and who started it, who was in the right and in the wrong DOES NOT MATTER to the customer company. Because it happened, and you were involved, they don't want you around anymore. They probably have their own lawyers (or their insurance guys) telling them that letting you back on their property is a risk to them.

Even if they don't, if they are within their contractual agreement rights, (and from what you said, they are) all you can do is politely ask them to change their minds, and say "thank you for your time" if they don't.

This is not a firearms matter, and not a civil rights matter, it is an employment contract and code of conduct under such, matter.

As such I don't see it as being well suited for this forum.

MrBot · March 5, 2020, 12:08 AM

Maybe the sub-forum should read: Law and Civil Rights. (But please, no personal stories).

**Aguila Blanca** · March 5, 2020, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBot

Maybe the sub-forum should read: Law and Civil Rights. (But please, no personal stories).

There is no need to change the name of this subforum.

The particular personal story here doesn't involve any questions of law or civil rights. As 44 AMP already commented two+ months ago:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

This is not a firearms matter, and not a civil rights matter, it is an employment contract and code of conduct under such, matter.

As such I don't see it as being well suited for this forum.

Closed as being off-topic.

December 27, 2019, 06:23 PM	#1
MrBot Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Posts: 113	Legal Use of Force Can Get You Fired I was at a business I've been to many times recently performing my regular duties when another man doing the same job as me but working for another company became enraged while the two of us were in the business parking lot. The individual claimed I'd parked my vehicle in a manner that prohibited his driving his vehicle from the lot--iow, he said my vehicle was in his way. That was not the case. We were both legally parked. He threatened to beat me up getting literally right on top of me. I pepper-sprayed him. As a result the business has banned me from their property under the claim that I had battered the guy by using the spray. In the mean time my employer has moved me from that higher paying account. It easily looks as though I'll be looking at a 40% pay cut if I stay with my current employer. The job I had at the higher pay rate is kind of specialized & I doubt I could get that kind of pay by going with another employer. So let this be a warning: Even though in your lawyer's opinion you're well within the law in defending yourself that is not to say you will avoid a major loss in the event you do so. Everyone I've talked to, including the responding police officer, has said I had every right to defend myself in this case yet here I am looking at a major drop in income. __________________ [If you tell the same lie enough times people will eventually believe it. Joseph Goebbels You are not ready for meat--you are still on the bottle. Stacy Washington: aka, Stacy On the Right]

December 27, 2019, 06:30 PM	#3
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	retain legal counsel. Are these restrictions in written form at your place of employment? Do they classify this spray as a weapon? Consult an employment attorney. Do you belong to a union? There are many things you can do __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

December 27, 2019, 06:38 PM	#4
MrBot Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Posts: 113	My employer has no restrictions against the spray. I'm being told I'm off the account because I can't service that individual customer anymore. And, yes, I've checked it out: The customer has every right to ban me. Aamof, my lawyer has told me they could ban me for literally any reason (other than what law prohibits such as discrimination due to race, religion etc..that sort of thing). We are not unionized. __________________ [If you tell the same lie enough times people will eventually believe it. Joseph Goebbels You are not ready for meat--you are still on the bottle. Stacy Washington: aka, Stacy On the Right]

December 28, 2019, 09:40 AM	#8
Aikibiker Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2002 Posts: 181	Sue the guy you sprayed and his employer (since he attacked you on their dime) for loss of income and infliction of emotional distress. You could also try suing the client, since they allowed a crazy guy to attack you on their property. Several courts have held that businesses can be sued for failure of security to keep people safe. My old employer was sued, and lost, after a lady had her arm broken by a purse snatcher in their parking lot. That might impact your current jobthough. __________________ __________________________ ~Joel TFL survivor, THR member, TFL member once again!

December 28, 2019, 12:44 PM	#10
MrBot Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Posts: 113	Hah! That's ez for you to say OldMarksman. You weren't there. He never gave me time to do anything. I coulda ran but he was younger & prbly faster than me. Plus, where would I have ran too? ..prbly wouldn't have sat well with the business had I allowed a nut like him to chase me & follow me into their bldg. And, no, no penalty was assessed on the other guy. The logic was that I had sprayed him. It didn't matter that he'd assaulted me. In the eyes of the individual making the call I was in the wrong. Bad call in my book. __________________ [If you tell the same lie enough times people will eventually believe it. Joseph Goebbels You are not ready for meat--you are still on the bottle. Stacy Washington: aka, Stacy On the Right]

December 27, 2019, 06:28 PM	#2
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,968	against the law and against policy are not always the same.

December 28, 2019, 09:13 AM	#6
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	Next time that happens, move the car.

December 28, 2019, 09:31 AM	#7
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	As I frequently explain to clients, just because you have a legal right to do something, doesn’t make that something a good idea.

December 28, 2019, 10:06 AM	#9
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,886	Everybody involved can get sued. The only absolute, however, is that the customer can declare anyone they want to be PNG'd ...and the Account is forfeit. T`ain't fair.... but it is fact.

December 28, 2019, 01:39 PM	#12
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,886	The only entity the OP has action against is his accused assailant. But wait . . . Lacking witnesses/video, the only evidence is injury to that accused assailant. He said/She said with forensics supporting only one side. What's not to like ?

December 28, 2019, 10:46 PM	#13
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	I suspect those encouraging you to sue everyone are not attorneys. And your employer might not like it if you sue a good client

December 28, 2019, 11:16 PM	#14
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,968	he said she said law suit that won't go anywhere. I agree with next time moving the damn car. when you are a guest you need to be more humble than when you are the host.

December 29, 2019, 09:48 AM	#16
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,328	Personally, I would try some frank, but absolutely calm conversation about the incident with my company owner first and ask to have a 3 way with the other company owner. My points would be simple: -I’m a on time employee producing the highest quality work of this specialized nature that only I can do the way I’m doing it. -The other guy attacked me and I felt intimidated, threatened, feared for my life. -Let’s work together to keep the workplace safe and harassment free. There are jerks everywhere and they create liabilities for good folks like the 3 of us. I might try to run this by an employment attorney first to tune it up, if it did not delay my response by more than a day or 2.

March 5, 2020, 12:08 AM	#18
MrBot Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Posts: 113	Maybe the sub-forum should read: Law and Civil Rights. (But please, no personal stories). __________________ [If you tell the same lie enough times people will eventually believe it. Joseph Goebbels You are not ready for meat--you are still on the bottle. Stacy Washington: aka, Stacy On the Right]