"Serious" Shotguns and stock fit....

Dave McC · March 18, 2001, 09:35 AM

This came up on another thread, and I believe there's widespread lack of knowledge about this. Sporting guns and HD/"Tactical"/ WIHTF shotguns have different missions and requirements.

The Brits have made almost a cult about proper shotgun fit for their hunting and games. Since lots of those folks shoot rings around me, there's merit in their ideas, where applicable. Trouble is, most of the literature focusses on sporting guns and ignores real world needs.

And most of what there is has little to do with anything besides length, and that's only part of the story...

Let's deal with overall fit,and then break it down. By and large,this works with all sighting systems, optical, rifle, GR and simple beads.

First test. After ensuring your shotgun is empty and safe,assume a ready position. I prefer low ready. Face towards a wall and focus on a spot, the smallest spot you can. W/o moving any more than necessary, close your eyes and mount the weapon. Bring your weapon up to make a good cheek contact, not bring your face down to the weapon. Open your eyes and see how and if the sights line up, and whether they require any head movement to get them aligned.

OK, everything is lined up perfectly. SO, are you done?

Nope, repeat a half dozen times or so and see how it goes. If it still is good, the first stage is passed successfully.

Second stage is range time. Shoot it and see whether you're hitting.

But,you've opened your eyes and found that things are awry.

Let's go down the list and remember that all these things are interconnected.

First, WHERE was the shotgun pointed? Was it high, low, left, right?

Starting with length....

If, when you're in the classic position and your shooting hand thumb is 1-1 1/2" away from your nose,and you're shooting OK, the length is close enough.This assumes you can mount THAT shotgun easily and consistently. If you rap your nose smartly,or there's a mere finger's width between nose and finger,use spacers to lengthen the stock a little.Repeat, a little.A 1/8" spacer or two at most should fix.

If you have to struggle to get the the weapon into position fast, and your thumb and nose are further apart, you need a shorter stock. But it's not that simple.

Shorter stocks,all else equal, have smaller butts. Smaller butts mean less area to spread recoil forces around. Felt recoil climbs,meaning flinch building, misses, and slower repeat shots. Also, all else equal, shorter stocks shoot a bit higher.So, lopping off an inch or two of length will not serve as a panacea for stock fit.Most folks can handle a stock that's a little on the short side better than one that's a skosh too long, so there's some margin here.

Next, you opened your eyes to find the shotgun pointed way off L/R. I'd do an eye dominance test and see if my dominant eye and shooting hand were on the same side of my body.If that checks out,look to your form more than fit, few folks are grossly off L/R without cross dominance or major shooting form glitches.Since this is rare,let's move on.

How about elevation? At typical HD ranges,this isn't all that crucial, but if something happens outside, it may become so. A stock with too much drop to it may have the impact point raised by a number of ways, an addon cheekpiece, shimming the stock at the receiver,etc, will fix same. One that's too high is very rare, unless your only shotgun for HD is a dedicated trap gun.

After getting that to point where you want it to, pattern and target testing at the range is in order. Don't trust any shotgun for HD until you've got it shooting hwere it's supposed to.

A couple of notes....

First, stock material,wood or synthetic Polywhatever, is easier to take off that put back on. Measure twice, think it over 3 times, saw once.

Second, we all shoot our HD tools regularly, right? Try that bead sighted short bbled alley cleaner at skeet or Sporting clays. Besides fun, it's shotgun handling and firing at short time intervals. Or, join the local practical league and do a few COFS periodically.

Thanks...

Bud1 · March 19, 2001, 11:26 AM

A nice comprehensive primer, Dave.

And a hearty Thank You for not endorsing the old "hold the shotgun with your finger on the trigger and ensure that the butt fits snugly in the crook of your elbow" line. That single piece of advice messes up a lot of novice shotgunners who would benefit from proper stock fit.

Bud

PJR · March 19, 2001, 12:07 PM

Good suggestions on stock fit. My HD and slug hunting guns are set up more like my rifles than shotguns. Rifle length is often much shorter than sporting shotguns. I like a rifle at about 13-3/4s while my sporting shotguns are 14-7/8s or longer.

The points about proper drop are important for sight alignment particularly if you are using ghost rings or beads.

Although I have a fair amount of cast in my sporting guns I prefer the HD guns to have no cast to keep my weak hand options open.

As always your mileage may vary and the patterning board will tell the truth.

Dave McC · March 19, 2001, 12:28 PM

You're welcome, Bud. My HD 870,with the butt in the elbow crook, has the trigger falling at the base of my index finger. SO much for that myth.

Agreed,Paul, on cast for "Serious" shotguns. We all do practice from the offside, right?

If not, then think it over.

I'd hate to have to leave cover just to bring the weapon to bear from the right side, when I could stay behind cover and do whatever's needed.

Since HD/slug guns are shot more like rifles, a rifle style length will work fine. My first hunting rifle was a stock Springfield 03, which had something like a 12 3/4" pull. The 94 that serves as my woods rifle now isn't much longer.

Romulus · March 19, 2001, 01:46 PM

Excellent intro to something I've always wanted to know more about. How do you measure things like "length of pull," "drop at comb," etc...IOW, what are the points on the stock on which these are measured?

Thanks again...

trjake · March 19, 2001, 02:31 PM

At my Thunder Ranch defensive shotgun class, one of the things Clint Smith recommended on shotgun stock length was to cut it down to 12 1/2 to 12 3/4 inches so that the butt doesn't hang up as easily when mounting the shotgun. After the class I bought a spare buttstock for my 870, had it cut down to 12.5 inches with a pachmayr decelerator pad installed, and it makes a positive difference in handling for defensive purposes. A cheaper/easier way is to buy an Outers Youth Stock set (12.5" buttstock) from Brownell's. I have not noticed a recoil difference or change in Point of Aim, but you can check for any difference by patterning your shotgun. I suggest for those who have not done so to at least try a shorter buttstock, as you may also find that it works better for you. I have also put the shorter A-1 buttstock on my AR-15 and had the same treatment done to my Rem 700 LTR, and I don't regret it one bit, even though I'm over 6'.

Dave McC · March 20, 2001, 06:36 AM

Romulus, pull is measured from the center of the pad(or butt) to the center of the trigger.

To measure drop, make sure the piece is empty. Place it upside down on a table so that it's resting on the receiver.
Measure the distance from the comb at the front, what they call the nose of the stock. That's drop at comb. Do the same at the heel of the stock. Difference between the two will be about an inch in most cases.

Rtjake, that'll work, but like most things there's tradeoffs. A stock that short will shoot rather high, and some folks will feel mo' kick. Recoil tolerance varies widely, and some folks will not like what they feel with a very short stock.

BTW, the 870 Youth Express 20 ga I got for the kids has that length of stock, and while I can shoot it, the piece does have some kick to it.

I've no handling problems with the standard stock, but I'm a behemoth. 6'2", 250 lbs, 36" short sleeve, size 52 long coat.

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March 18, 2001, 09:35 AM	#1
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	This came up on another thread, and I believe there's widespread lack of knowledge about this. Sporting guns and HD/"Tactical"/ WIHTF shotguns have different missions and requirements. The Brits have made almost a cult about proper shotgun fit for their hunting and games. Since lots of those folks shoot rings around me, there's merit in their ideas, where applicable. Trouble is, most of the literature focusses on sporting guns and ignores real world needs. And most of what there is has little to do with anything besides length, and that's only part of the story... Let's deal with overall fit,and then break it down. By and large,this works with all sighting systems, optical, rifle, GR and simple beads. First test. After ensuring your shotgun is empty and safe,assume a ready position. I prefer low ready. Face towards a wall and focus on a spot, the smallest spot you can. W/o moving any more than necessary, close your eyes and mount the weapon. Bring your weapon up to make a good cheek contact, not bring your face down to the weapon. Open your eyes and see how and if the sights line up, and whether they require any head movement to get them aligned. OK, everything is lined up perfectly. SO, are you done? Nope, repeat a half dozen times or so and see how it goes. If it still is good, the first stage is passed successfully. Second stage is range time. Shoot it and see whether you're hitting. But,you've opened your eyes and found that things are awry. Let's go down the list and remember that all these things are interconnected. First, WHERE was the shotgun pointed? Was it high, low, left, right? Starting with length.... If, when you're in the classic position and your shooting hand thumb is 1-1 1/2" away from your nose,and you're shooting OK, the length is close enough.This assumes you can mount THAT shotgun easily and consistently. If you rap your nose smartly,or there's a mere finger's width between nose and finger,use spacers to lengthen the stock a little.Repeat, a little.A 1/8" spacer or two at most should fix. If you have to struggle to get the the weapon into position fast, and your thumb and nose are further apart, you need a shorter stock. But it's not that simple. Shorter stocks,all else equal, have smaller butts. Smaller butts mean less area to spread recoil forces around. Felt recoil climbs,meaning flinch building, misses, and slower repeat shots. Also, all else equal, shorter stocks shoot a bit higher.So, lopping off an inch or two of length will not serve as a panacea for stock fit.Most folks can handle a stock that's a little on the short side better than one that's a skosh too long, so there's some margin here. Next, you opened your eyes to find the shotgun pointed way off L/R. I'd do an eye dominance test and see if my dominant eye and shooting hand were on the same side of my body.If that checks out,look to your form more than fit, few folks are grossly off L/R without cross dominance or major shooting form glitches.Since this is rare,let's move on. How about elevation? At typical HD ranges,this isn't all that crucial, but if something happens outside, it may become so. A stock with too much drop to it may have the impact point raised by a number of ways, an addon cheekpiece, shimming the stock at the receiver,etc, will fix same. One that's too high is very rare, unless your only shotgun for HD is a dedicated trap gun. After getting that to point where you want it to, pattern and target testing at the range is in order. Don't trust any shotgun for HD until you've got it shooting hwere it's supposed to. A couple of notes.... First, stock material,wood or synthetic Polywhatever, is easier to take off that put back on. Measure twice, think it over 3 times, saw once. Second, we all shoot our HD tools regularly, right? Try that bead sighted short bbled alley cleaner at skeet or Sporting clays. Besides fun, it's shotgun handling and firing at short time intervals. Or, join the local practical league and do a few COFS periodically. Thanks...

March 19, 2001, 11:26 AM	#2
Bud1 Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2000 Posts: 194	A nice comprehensive primer, Dave. And a hearty Thank You for not endorsing the old "hold the shotgun with your finger on the trigger and ensure that the butt fits snugly in the crook of your elbow" line. That single piece of advice messes up a lot of novice shotgunners who would benefit from proper stock fit. Bud

March 19, 2001, 12:07 PM	#3
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	Good suggestions on stock fit. My HD and slug hunting guns are set up more like my rifles than shotguns. Rifle length is often much shorter than sporting shotguns. I like a rifle at about 13-3/4s while my sporting shotguns are 14-7/8s or longer. The points about proper drop are important for sight alignment particularly if you are using ghost rings or beads. Although I have a fair amount of cast in my sporting guns I prefer the HD guns to have no cast to keep my weak hand options open. As always your mileage may vary and the patterning board will tell the truth.

March 19, 2001, 12:28 PM	#4
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	You're welcome, Bud. My HD 870,with the butt in the elbow crook, has the trigger falling at the base of my index finger. SO much for that myth. Agreed,Paul, on cast for "Serious" shotguns. We all do practice from the offside, right? If not, then think it over. I'd hate to have to leave cover just to bring the weapon to bear from the right side, when I could stay behind cover and do whatever's needed. Since HD/slug guns are shot more like rifles, a rifle style length will work fine. My first hunting rifle was a stock Springfield 03, which had something like a 12 3/4" pull. The 94 that serves as my woods rifle now isn't much longer.

March 19, 2001, 01:46 PM	#5
Romulus Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2001 Location: Kettle Moraine country Posts: 897	Excellent intro to something I've always wanted to know more about. How do you measure things like "length of pull," "drop at comb," etc...IOW, what are the points on the stock on which these are measured? Thanks again...

March 19, 2001, 02:31 PM	#6
trjake Member Join Date: February 2, 2001 Posts: 65	At my Thunder Ranch defensive shotgun class, one of the things Clint Smith recommended on shotgun stock length was to cut it down to 12 1/2 to 12 3/4 inches so that the butt doesn't hang up as easily when mounting the shotgun. After the class I bought a spare buttstock for my 870, had it cut down to 12.5 inches with a pachmayr decelerator pad installed, and it makes a positive difference in handling for defensive purposes. A cheaper/easier way is to buy an Outers Youth Stock set (12.5" buttstock) from Brownell's. I have not noticed a recoil difference or change in Point of Aim, but you can check for any difference by patterning your shotgun. I suggest for those who have not done so to at least try a shorter buttstock, as you may also find that it works better for you. I have also put the shorter A-1 buttstock on my AR-15 and had the same treatment done to my Rem 700 LTR, and I don't regret it one bit, even though I'm over 6'.

March 20, 2001, 06:36 AM	#7
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Romulus, pull is measured from the center of the pad(or butt) to the center of the trigger. To measure drop, make sure the piece is empty. Place it upside down on a table so that it's resting on the receiver. Measure the distance from the comb at the front, what they call the nose of the stock. That's drop at comb. Do the same at the heel of the stock. Difference between the two will be about an inch in most cases. Rtjake, that'll work, but like most things there's tradeoffs. A stock that short will shoot rather high, and some folks will feel mo' kick. Recoil tolerance varies widely, and some folks will not like what they feel with a very short stock. BTW, the 870 Youth Express 20 ga I got for the kids has that length of stock, and while I can shoot it, the piece does have some kick to it. I've no handling problems with the standard stock, but I'm a behemoth. 6'2", 250 lbs, 36" short sleeve, size 52 long coat.