45/70 sabo loads?

[saudst]

I had some .40 cal. 200grn. Hornady XTP's given to me and was thinking of getting some Harvester 45 to 40 caliber sabos to produce a mild recoiling white tail load to shoot in my 45/70 NEF buffalo classic. has anyone here experimented with this, and where do you start? The suitable powders I currently have for the 45/70 are H4895, H322, Re7 and IMR 3031. The lightest bullet load recipes I have are for a 300grn. jacketed. I suppose I could just use Pyrodex, but I'd rather trade them for something I can use some where else than deal with the clean up. Any info would be great, thank you. Tim.

[Salmoneye]

Not really sure what you are trying to achieve, but this site has low level cast data for a host of cartridges...

405gr cast at 1,100+fps is more than adequate for deer size game at moderate ranges:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[briandg]

You're really off the edge, into that part without a map. That's just not how those things are meant to work. In sure that someone, somewhere, got it to work, but just let me urge caution.


I'm afraid that you won't build sufficient pressure upon ignition. That's a big case, and that powder charge may fizzle out.

[saudst]

I have read my post and the responses several times. Please forgive me but I still don't understand. The bullets were given to me, and I don't own a .40 caliber firearm. Not that I have to use them, I may be able to trade them for something else, I just thought it would be an interesting exercise. The Harvester sabos, .45/.40 were designed to shoot .40 caliber bullets from a .45 caliber bore. The load I was envisioning would be real close to the same set up out of a .45 caliber muzzle loader. Maybe a little left of center, but it didn't seem off the edge to me. Now I feel like I'm really missing something. Could you please clarify?

[849ACSO]

I've never messed with anything like that, but reload 45/70. Keep in mind, I'm not advocating doing this, but;

IF IT WERE ME, and I truly wanted to try this, I would take the total weight of bullet and sabot, and load according to published data for that weight. Out of a single shot, I would try a few rounds for speed and accuracy. But THAT'S ME. You do what you feel comfy with.

I don't have a single shot, mine is lever and I would be concerned about setback in the mag tube. Let us know how you fair.

[briandg]

Saud, let me explain some of my concerns. 200 grains is a very light bullet for a .45 bore, especially a rifle. The sabot, along with that very small bullet won't allow for a crimp, probably, and will offer little resistance to the bullet entering the rifling. You have that enormous case a small charge is going to scatter all over the interior, and powder that is difficult to ignite will not ignite.

People who load the old, massive express rifles with modern powder sometimes use a stack of card wads or cream of wheat to fill up the case and compress the load a bit.

This thing is meant to be fired with bp in a chamber free bore, not a cartridge. Practically speaking, I'm going to saw that it won't work, but I'm sure that some number of people have managed to overcome that.

An old times would have tried .45 pistol bullets, loads meant for a .45 colt, packed in cork wads, or Mar be not.

[SHR970]

First consideration: The velocity window those 40 cal bullets are meant to operate in.

Second Consideration: Loading them in a cartridge that can EASILY exceed that velocity window.

Third Consideration: The Brass has a LOT of volume that you must deal with.

Since you are dealing with a single shot.....crimp is not necessarily a major issue.

You might want to look at 'REDUCED LOADS' or MAX loads for a Trapdoor for 300 gr bullets as a starting point.

[totaldla]

I would try re7,h322,3031 and try for low-end of 300gr data. I suspect the velocity will be higher than you want.

You can also use fast pistol powder to hit the 1000fps mark. 7gr of Clays, Bullseye, Titegroup,etc. Will move a 200'ish grain bullet safely. Commonly done to make plinking loads with 405gr cast bullets.

[briandg]

There's a though I hadn't contemplated. That sabot could be pushed down into the case, down against the powder, since you aren't feeding through a magazine. Still, I'm not sure if you could get ignition. That is where I see the problem. A primer is a very small spark,and you have to have a confined charge that is going to be touched by the primer.

You are going to be setting off a primer with probably a small load of smokeless powder in a cavernous shell that can't offer any resistance and back pressure.

This idea would probably work great with bp. Maybe there's a way to do it with smokeless.

[briandg]

And once again, a thought, it's possible that by pushing the sabot back to the powder line, one could actually load rounds with either .45cap or colt load equivalents, but again, a bullet that has no resistance to the expanding gasses could fail to properly ignite, even if the charge was confined next to the primer. Smokeless powder needs confinement, heat, pressure, and flame, all of them, to successfully ignite and combust.

I'm just worried that the rounds will "squib." This would be a lot like packing a charge of powder into a .44 magnum case and putting in a cork.

[briandg]

I guess I should say once more, I suppose that this would work just fine with black powder or pyrodex. Maybe pellets would work better. Maybe you could use a sizing die to lock the brass to the sabot. Maybe you could load the sabot into the barrel itself and the cartridge separately, like some of the match shooters do. You've probably heard everything I can think of. Good luck.

[totaldla]

The sabot allows you to seat the bullet normally. Since this will be fired in a single-shot break action - crimp/neck tension and COL aren't as critical.

So I think this will run fine with ANY fast pistol powder. I've made lots of plinkers using 7gr of Clays and 405gr and 500gr cast. The 405gr runs about 900fps from my guide gun. I would suspect that a 200'ish grain projectile would hit about 1200fps from the NEF.

This isn't a safety issue - the pressures will be low. But it might be a practicality issue as a 1200fps sabot might not give you the accuracy you need for hunting.

[mwells72774]

Here's a suggestion... Try a 45 cal ML load with Black powder and a filler

[SSA]

Never tried anything like this, don't know anything about it.

Plastic sabot, sounds like low friction in the bore. Also seems like the sabot could stay in the bore, even if the bullet leaves. Should be no big deal, as long as you check before you shoot again.

Along the lines of what briandg said, you could seat the sabot deeper in the case, to equal 45 Colt length, and use 45 Colt data, and something like Unique.

Or, Trailboss powder might be a simple way to do this.

And another thing. Hornady says the 40 cal 200 gr XTP is good for up to 1200 fps. For hunting, I wouldn't push it much faster than that, and I would consider it strictly a short-range load.

[totaldla]

Just in case you've never seen this, here is a collection of plinker load data put together for CAS
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[briandg]

I never would have imagined using ten grains of bullseye in a 300 grain 45-70. I'm sure that it would work.

The sabot 200 grain is a green horse. What sort of work do you think it would do compared to those lead rounds?

[totaldla]

I really have no idea. It won't "lead" the bore. It will probably hit good velocity. I wonder about the separation of sabot and bullet upsetting accuracy. I personally wouldn't want to push that bullet past 1400fps at the absolute max unless the deer are pretty small as I would think it would come apart pretty fast.

It would be fun to play with.

[saudst]

Thank you for all the input. After reading all the angles and scenarios, I think I'll leave this kind of experimenting to the people with the lab coats and a lab. This just seems too far off the beaten path for me and I'll post these bullets at the local gun club for a possible trade for something I currently load for. I've been reloading for 34yrs. but I'm no wildcatter by any means. Thank you, Tim.

[briandg]

Good idea. I'm sure that someone, somewhere, has tinkered with the idea, and may have been successful, but smokeless powder just doesn't sound like a good it for high capacity case, flat based sabot, and light bullet. By all means go ahead and look at using 2400 and low weight lead rounds, but you have to use bullets meant for the rifle, not the pistol.

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by briandg

Good idea. I'm sure that someone, somewhere, has tinkered with the idea, and may have been successful, but smokeless powder just doesn't sound like a good it for high capacity case, flat based sabot, and light bullet.

Well you missed the whole point of using fast pistol powders, which is why i and others posted the link to the CAS data. Fast pistol powders work really well in large capacity cases - and I personally make plinkers with the 45-70, 30-30 and 44mag using hodgdon Clays (equivalent to Bullseye/Tightgroup/AA2/etc.) - 5gr to 7gr is all that is required and regular primers.

So don't post disparaging remarks about "smokeless powder" until you've read up on it a bit.