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Old December 6, 2018, 09:05 AM   #26
Walt Sherrill
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Originally Posted by USNRet93
I am a relative novice but for carry, aren't all hammer fired auto loaders also with either a safety, a decocker or both? I prefer the 'safety' of striker fired with one in the chamber, no need to 'decock or push safety off, plus same trigger pull everytime..Glock.
Since you say you're a relative novice to carry (and implicitly new to carry-type handguns) I'll offer you the following, while boring everyone else. They can skip to the next response.

Hammer-fired with safety: The CZ hammer-fired guns that don't have the decocker-option have a frame-mounted safety, but it only functions when the hammer is cocked. (Some of the CZ-pattern guns that are similar to the CZ have safeties that work in any hammer mode.) If the hammer is cocked you must either lower the hammer manually, or enagge the safety and holster the gun. CZ also offers a newer design, availble in some of their metal-framed and polymer framed handguns -- called the Omega system -- which allows the gun owner to switch from safety only to decocker (and back, if you choose). A very clever design and easily switched. Either version has a true DA trigger, but when in deoccker mode, the gun decocks to and starts from the hammer's "half-cock" notch which leaves the hammer spring partially tensioned, and the trigger pull is shortened and lightened slightly.

Hammer-fired with safety with a quirk: The Lionheart LH9 (and updated models) has a safety that can be used in any mode. Tne LH9 is an upgraded version of the Korean Daewoo DP-51. That gun lets you cock the hammer, and then push it forward to the hammer down position, but the trigger becomes a two-stage trigger, the first part of the pull shifts the hinged hammer back (to a SA cocked position), and then as you continue the pull, it acts like a SA gun. The transition between the first stage and the next is very distinct and easily managed. You can use the frame-mounted safety in any trigger mode. DA, SA, or SA+ (i.e., cocked but hammer down) and its easier to manage that it seems. But you can also use the safety if you want.

Striker-fired with frame-mounted safeties: Several gunmakers offer striker-fired guns with frame-mounted safeties. My Ruger SR9c has a safety, which I usually ignore. FN makes several striker-fired guns with frame-mounted safeties (These guns are available either way, but not convertible once you've selected on version.). I think S&W offers models in the M&P line that work this way. In all of these models you CAN ignore the safety lever if you choose to. But if you feel the need, the safety is easily engaged and disengaged.

Glock with a frame-mounted safety?: Glock has made special-order variants of their guns for some small military units that also have a frame-mounted safety. I think the Israeli military used some like this several years ago, and they have since gone to more Glocks, but I don't know which models they're using and whether they use that frame-mounted safety.

[B]Decockable Striker fired with true DA triggers:/B] Walther has made (and maybe still does make) models that, while striker fired can be started from a partially charged striker (like Glock) so that all trigger pulls are the same. But those models can be decocked and they then work like a true double-action design (in which the trigger pull tensions the hammer decocker spring and alos releases it. It's not necessary to work the slide to reactivate the striker mechanism as it he case with most striker-fired guns. The Waltherr P99 (and the similar S&W 99, which was basically a Walther with S&W markings) works the way, and I think some other Walther models may have that flexibility.

Striker-fired Double-Action Only (DAO): The CZ-100, which I hated, was DAO, so every pull of the trigger was the same. (The design was OK, but the trigger pull was ugly. (I had both the 9mm and .40 versions.) But because it's DAO, there's no safety, and no need.

Other variants of a basic design: There are models of the older 3rd gen. metal-framed S&W semi-autos that have decockers and NOT safeties, but weren't trully DA models -- as the slide had to be moved a small distance to partially tension the hammer springs (like a Glock) before the trigger would complete the process and release the hammer. These were considered DOUBLE-ACTION guns, but the trigger alone could not make the gun fire if you had a misfire. The Kel-Tec PF9 is like this, and doesn't have a frame-mounted safety. Some of the smaller guns, like the Kel-Tec P11 are hammer fired and don't have a safety lever but do have a true DA trigger.

Nearly (but not) all of these guns have firing pin blocks (also called firing pin safeties) so that drops or hammer blows won't cause an unintended discharge.

There may be still other variants out there, but they don't immediately come to mind.

Last edited by Walt Sherrill; December 6, 2018 at 09:22 AM.
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Old December 6, 2018, 09:38 AM   #27
USNRet93
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Thank you Walt..great review. I had a Ruger LC-9S, not the pro, with a safety..didn't like using the safety nor did I like shooting it..so it became a Glock 17, for my son and started my Glock fan-boy-ism(yes, I admit it)...Gonna go rent a classic 1911 type this Saturday..just to see, to increase my knowledge best my wallet can support.
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Old December 6, 2018, 09:41 AM   #28
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Not quite. There's a number of DAO pistols on the market that lack both external safeties and deckockers. For example, the Sig DAK models and Ruger LCP.
Yup, have a LCP, with the 'semi cocked' hammer gig, unlike LCP-2..Gonna use the LCP as trade for other son's G43 when he has his CCW..really dislike the LCP...
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Old December 6, 2018, 09:48 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by ChasHam:
Striker-Fired vs. Hammer-Fired
Reading various threads in this forum, folks have definite opinions and preferences on the desirability of striker-fired vs. hammer-fired pistols, especially with respect to how they’re carried. I haven’t done an actual count but my impression is there’s a lean toward hammer-fired.

You have more options and control with a hammer—but beside that, they both go bang when you squeeze the trigger. Wonder why folks bring up the two different mechanisms so often.
Most law enforcement agencies and the U.S. military have transitioned from hammer-fired to striker-fired service pistols at this point in time. I think this fact says that a lot of consideration went into the decisions to make this move. A reasonable person might think that what works for law enforcement and the military might work for me, if I take the time to try one out at the range and evaluate it for what it’s intended purpose is.

Those of us, myself included, who once said that they wouldn’t own a Glock that was given to them, now routinely carry & shoot Glocks. The times have changed!
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Old December 6, 2018, 09:58 AM   #30
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I am a relative novice but for carry, aren't all hammer fired auto loaders also with either a safety, a decocker or both?
The HK USP series with the LEO triggers are hammer fired without an external safety. When the pistol is cocked, the hammer returns forward but the trigger spring is pre-loaded.

When you squeeze the trigger it is very light and the hammer comes back normally just at very reduced forces.

When the trigger hits the pre-load, the tension returns and the break is normal just much shorter than straight Double Action. At some point the bar preventing the firing pin from being struck moves to allow the hammer to strike. It feels more like a single action trigger. Follow on shots are normal single action trigger.
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Old December 6, 2018, 10:14 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by davidsog View Post
The HK USP series with the LEO triggers are hammer fired without an external safety. When the pistol is cocked, the hammer returns forward but the trigger spring is pre-loaded.

When you squeeze the trigger it is very light and the hammer comes back normally just at very reduced forces.

When the trigger hits the pre-load, the tension returns and the break is normal just much shorter than straight Double Action. At some point the bar preventing the firing pin from being struck moves to allow the hammer to strike. It feels more like a single action trigger. Follow on shots are normal single action trigger.
Yeah the Law Enforcement Modification (LEM) is an interesting system. You can also change the weight of it with spring swaps. The light LEM version was very popular on HKPRO. I don't feel like LEM was ever as popular as HK had hoped.

If you want to talk modular, the HK USP with its ability to be converted from DA/SA with safety, to DA/SA without safety, to LEM, and all the versions in-between is really something. Sadly the following P series pistols aren't the same. If it starts as DA/SA you can convert to LEM (although it isn't supported at the factory) but not the other way around.

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Old December 6, 2018, 10:54 AM   #32
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Hardly. Sales numbers and what agencies use show a very strong preference to striker fired pistols. I own both and each has their advantages and disadvantages which are often a topic of discussion but as Winny said it boils down to personal preference.
And many of those that do use a hammer option specify a DAO or similar (LEM, DAK, ETC) trigger over the DA/SA.

It is easier to train for a single trigger pull, which is the real difference, hammer or no.

I prefer a consistent pull myself, but usually opt for a SAO and thumb safety.
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Old December 6, 2018, 10:54 AM   #33
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I don't feel like LEM was ever as popular as HK had hoped.
I think you are right and certainly not popular or well known with the civilian market which HK is kind of new too. The fact the workings or options are not well known combined with HK's premium price leaves many people looking at other options significantly cheaper.

The modularity of the USP is very nice and as a combat handgun, it is top notch.
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Old December 6, 2018, 11:22 AM   #34
lee n. field
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Originally Posted by ChasHam View Post
Reading various threads in this forum, folks have definite opinions and preferences on the desirability of striker-fired vs. hammer-fired pistols, especially with respect to how they’re carried. I haven’t done an actual count but my impression is there’s a lean toward hammer-fired.

You have more options and control with a hammer—but beside that, they both go bang when you squeeze the trigger. Wonder why folks bring up the two different mechanisms so often.
Internet gun social media induced tendency to focus on minutia that don't matter?

For everything put forward as a defining feature of striker fired or hammer fired systems, there are counter examples. Ex.: Not all striker fired guns are "DAO"*. (Not even very many, strictly speaking.)

"Hammer vs. striker" really doesn't matter near as much as other things. It's not anything I look at when I shop, and I have a good mix of the various systems.

(*and, there are lots of systems that don't quite fit the SAO/DAO/DA-SA classification. Just to mix metahpors and "throw confusion on the fire".)
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Old December 6, 2018, 12:56 PM   #35
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I tend to agree with lee n. field on this.

From the point of view of the shooter, who wants bullets to come out of the barrel with reliability and relative accuracy, there is no intrinsic benefit of a striker fired gun over a hammer fired gun. A good deal of it is a matter of preference.

From the point of view of the military and police agencies there are definite benefits of polymer framed pistols with a lean to strikers.

But most of this is internet gun talk where we like to compile lists and compare the items. 9mm vs. 45, revolvers vs semis, shotgun vs AR for home defense, etc.

Things change and come around. Now days you buy a S&W M&P or a Glock and folks tell you that you need 4-500 dollars worth of after market parts to get the guns ready for self defense or competition. For the latter maybe $1,000. worth of parts and custom work.

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Old December 6, 2018, 01:12 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Walt Sherrill View Post
Striker-fired with frame-mounted safeties: Several gunmakers offer striker-fired guns with frame-mounted safeties. My Ruger SR9c has a safety, which I usually ignore. FN makes several striker-fired guns with frame-mounted safeties (These guns are available either way, but not convertible once you've selected on version.). I think S&W offers models in the M&P line that work this way. In all of these models you CAN ignore the safety lever if you choose to. But if you feel the need, the safety is easily engaged and disengaged.
This is my comfort zone for my carry guns, both M&Ps. I grew up hunting and around guns and they all had external safeties on them, and I'm just not comfortable carrying around a handgun that doesn't feature an affirmative safety I have to switch off to fire. I realize it's an extra step but after 30+ years of shooting, switching off a safety isn't a step I have to think about consciously. Once the safety is switched off, I like getting the same trigger pull every time.

There's no right or wrong answer as long as you're comfortable with what you're doing and you've put in the appropriate training time.
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Old December 6, 2018, 01:58 PM   #37
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Things change and come around. Now days you buy a S&W M&P or a Glock and folks tell you that you need 4-500 dollars worth of after market parts to get the guns ready for self defense or competition. For the latter maybe $1,000. worth of parts and custom work.

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Old December 6, 2018, 03:01 PM   #38
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I am not an enthusiast by traditional definition. I am very enthusiastic about concealed carry pistols for self defense though. My primary carry pistol is a Ruger SR9c. To assume I am a novice only concerned with making a lot of noise at the range, and not concerned with performance, quality, reliability, accuracy or longevity in my firearms based on that choice would be silly. While I own some pistols and revolvers worth $600+ the ones I shoot most are all available for much less. For the record I have no use for an exposed hammer on a carry gun, even the venerable 1911, wonderful pistol that it is.
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Old December 6, 2018, 03:41 PM   #39
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I went back and forth over this issue when trying to decide which semi-auto to buy.

Then I found my "Goldilocks pistol", consistent trigger weight with a short smooth take-up (slack), crisp break and short reset. Not too heavy, and not too light.

And no trigger dongle!

Going from a 5 shot J frame .38 special to a 17+1 or 21+1 round capable 9mm Sig P320 is a huge leap into modern era for me.

So at the end of the day, the trigger of the striker fired P320 won it over.

To be fair, I have shot a 1911 and found the single action trigger way too light for my liking.
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Old December 6, 2018, 04:12 PM   #40
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There is absolutely nothing concrete that shows one better than there other in a general/all-around sense.

Are there pros and cons? Yes. Is that for the individual to weigh the options of? Yes.

I like my hammer fired guns a lot and I like my striker fired guns a lot. I am aware of each of their respected platform's short comings and what they excel in over the other for me and on a factual level.

I've had light strikes with both platforms. As TR said, I don't use the "second strike capability" because I'm hardwired to tap and rack if I hear a *click* regardless of platform.

Also, I can't slap the back of my USP shut and press off a round into an attacker the way I can with my striker-fired pistols. The drill goes: push in, fire (the slide movement is hindered), step back, rack, continue or asses.

Another thing is the triggers (opinion part) on DA/SA guns are preferred by me.

All depends on the person.
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Old December 6, 2018, 04:57 PM   #41
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I like striker fire or DA only because the trigger is the same for every shot. Typically there are few other controls like on a DA/SA. I don't want more stuff to fumble with.
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Old December 6, 2018, 05:10 PM   #42
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I always found the "extra switches" thing a little silly. But at the same time also relevant.

Like saying you'd never want a manual vehicle because it has too many gears to shift into. I mean, it's valid but is it valid valid? Or is it an excuse to not complicate things.

Regardless, you're right. If you don't want another step to do to reholster, right on.
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Old December 6, 2018, 05:28 PM   #43
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Striker or DA only epitomizes the K.I.S.S. principle with a handgun. I like the K.I.S.S. principle in a fight of which I have been in many. The more major muscle use reducing fine motor skills the better.
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Old December 6, 2018, 05:46 PM   #44
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It's all personal preference. I prefer hammers. All of my handguns have them. I have SA/DA w/safety, DAO w/ no safety, SA w/safety and internal hammer, SA w/safety and exposed hammer. I don't have any striker fired handguns yet, but that doesn't mean that I won't. I just haven't crossed that bridge yet. My 1st firearm was a SA exposed hammer single shot shotgun with no safety. I am comfortable lowering the hammer manually on all of my hammer fired firearms. I prefer a safety on my handguns with the exception of the DAO. I'm not old by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe old fashioned in some ways. Faults can be found in any system. Use what works for you.
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Old December 6, 2018, 06:03 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ChasHam View Post
Reading various threads in this forum, folks have definite opinions and preferences on the desirability of striker-fired vs. hammer-fired pistols, especially with respect to how they’re carried. I haven’t done an actual count but my impression is there’s a lean toward hammer-fired.

You have more options and control with a hammer—but beside that, they both go bang when you squeeze the trigger. Wonder why folks bring up the two different mechanisms so often.
I have definite opinions about hammers and strikers, but I don't know that I have a real preference. At least not outside the context of "function." I absolutely love shooting my 1911, but I carry a Shield most days.
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Old December 7, 2018, 12:39 PM   #46
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All my autos are hammer fired. Owned both but I prefer da/sa
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Old December 7, 2018, 07:29 PM   #47
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My carry guns are striker fired since I prefer a consistent trigger pull (Glock) vs. a DA/SA. The compromise would be to get a SA only, but I don't want the extra weight and round count penalty.

For the range, no striker fired gun beats a nice crisp single action trigger of a nice 1911. The best I've fired is the Walther PPQ, but it is still a big difference.
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Old December 7, 2018, 08:29 PM   #48
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All my autos are hammer fired
Off topic, but, if your title is a Pantera reference, I approve. If not...., I still approve.....not that it matters.
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Old December 7, 2018, 10:42 PM   #49
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I own practically every kind of striker and hammer-fired pistol. I like them all. I kind of prefer metal and hammers for the range, and polymer/strikers for carry, but that's not at all a hard and fast "rule". I enjoy shooting just about anything, and have carried lots of different pistols over the years.
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Old December 8, 2018, 05:54 AM   #50
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Reading various threads in this forum, folks have definite opinions and preferences on the desirability of striker-fired vs. hammer-fired pistols, especially with respect to how they’re carried.
I like hammer fired better, but it is rarely a factor in my carry, HD, or purchase choices. When buying, other factors usually are more important. So, I've ended up with more hammer fired guns (when it isn't going to be a carry gun a hammer fired gun usually does win out), but with a few striker fired guns and more likely to be added in the future. The main thing between them when carrying, I am a large guy with a bit of overhang and I usually prefer IWB carry. Thus, that needs to be considered when buying a holster or the hammer is going to press into my sides too much and get really uncomfortable (an undershirt tends to ride up eventually so it isn't the answer, and a little bit of cotton isn't as thick or protective as thicker leather anyway). With a striker fired gun with few sharp edges, I can go with any holster style. Otherwise, I tend to look more to size, weight, accuracy and reliability reputation, and other features over hammer v. striker when picking a gun.
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