Bear:is the9mm enough

[GarandTd]

Bears are not a huge concern of mine, but they are around and I've been seeing more and more of them. In my area, black bears are the only bears around unless I'm unfortunate enough to stumble across a fugitive from a Zoo. If I am in the woods and not hunting, I carry my 9mm loaded with fmj. It is my understanding that fmj has a better chance of reaching vitals in a meaty bear than defensive hp rounds. To be honest, no amount of firepower makes me feel good when a bear is nearby.

[Cosmodragoon]

That’s more like what I had in mind when I started this thread, the bullets not so much the Cartridge

The simple answer:

If all I had was 9mm, that's what I'd carry. If black bears were a concern, I'd definitely choose the "Xtreme Penetrators" in 9mm for reasons already discussed. In most places, it is still a pretty rare threat and possibly rarer than running into dangerous human beings on the trail. (Those bullets will also work just fine for bad guys, coyotes, wild dogs, etc.)

[Onward Allusion]

the bullets not so much the Cartridge

I would never recommend straight-up 9x19 for bear, even black bear. If you're just talking 9mm bullet, then I'd suggest 357 Sig from a full sized pistol like a Glock 31 or the tried and true 357 Magnum.

[74A95]

I, too, think the Lehigh bullets would be a good choice for a deep penetrating bullet for this purpose or anything that merits deep penetration. Underwood offers a +P and +P+ version in 9mm with this bullet. The +P+ version is supposed to reach 1350 fps.

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...=7865933234233

[FrankenMauser]

According to the internet, the only thing that might give you a chance against a bear is a 40mm Bofors cannon, and the safest bet is a 105mm Howitzer.

Me, personally?
I carry a 9mm (w/ 124 Gold Dots) or .327 Federal (various loads) in bear country, far more than anything else (even with multiple .44 Mags and a .480 Ruger at my disposal).
I've had bear encounters. I've read many stories. I've done a lot of research.
My odds, in my opinion, are just as good - possibly better - with a 9mm, than with one of the large bore options.

Grizzly may be a bit tougher, but black bears are soft, squishy, sensitive little things that are not difficult to kill - let alone dissuade from snacking on your toes. Unless you're around Grizz, don't over-think it.

[Cosmodragoon]

Grizzly may be a bit tougher, but black bears are soft, squishy, sensitive little things that are not difficult to kill - let alone dissuade from snacking on your toes. Unless you're around Grizz, don't over-think it.

I highlighted the best advice in this quote. I mean, it's fun to discuss but as I said, it's a pretty rare threat in most places. I've personally shouted away a number of animals, including two black bears. The only time I was ever really scared around wildlife was a coyote that got into a brief staring contest with me.

It was just after I got done shooting a big revolver for recreation. I walked around the bend and there he was. (A hunting buddy later suggested that that gunfire can mean food and coyotes are quick learners.) I actually drew my little CCW and had it fail, leaving me staring down the "that's not a dog" with my heart pounding. Lucky for me, he just turned tail and bounded up over the bank after a few seconds.

Bears are the biggest, baddest animals many of us might face. Lucky for us, we probably won't. As with ordinary EDC, it's important to prepare for the worst but also to balance that against practical concerns and living our lives. Personally, it looks like I'll be retiring my .357 magnum for .357 Sig on woodland walks. For EDC in the civilized world, it's either 9mm or .327 Federal.

[tipoc]

So I was wondering
Would a bullet like say the these from Lehigh defense
https://www.lehighdefense.com/produc...ant=1066222584
Change the Perception on the 9x19 Being enough for a bear?

That is a poor round for worrying about using on an errant bear. Others made this point correctly. I'll just add that a hard cast lead bullet with a broad flat meplat penetrates well, travels straight and can break bone. The latter being a good thing to be concerned with. Something more like this would be much, much better if you are stuck with 9mm...

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/49...nose-box-of-20

Folks were also correct who said to carry the most powerful caliber and round that you can shoot accurately at speed. 9mm is a minimal round when it comes to that, meaning the minimal place to start from then move upward.

I'll paraphrase Elmer Keith's advice on this (you know he would have started with a 44 Spl., 45 Colt or 44 Magnum.): Have a long gun. If you don't take that advice, then carry a strong powerful revolver and as the bear gets close stick the gun in it's mouth and keep pulling the trigger till you don't have a hand anymore. After that you won't worry about the choice of handgun caliber so much.

tipoc

[sheepman]

A 9mm Luger will kill a bear, I know of one any way, however so will a 22LR. My father had one herder that took one with a 9 and another that took several with a 22 single shot. Is a 9mm enough, not in my opinion the above were shot out of trees with dogs below. Dad furnished a 3030 or bigger and these guys were not working for him at the time they did this. A government trapper that covered eastern Washington used a 22lr revolver to kill bears in his traps. Killing a bear is not the same as stopping them before they get to you. For me 357 / 45 or bigger in a handgun.

[ammo.crafter]

I do not know if you have taken any professional self defense courses, if so you would know that many forces come into play in such a situation.

You will be anxious; nervous; scared; unable to take an action shoot stance, etc.

Get the biggest handgun you are able to fire and consistently put shots where you want them to go every time you fire it. A 9mm is grossly under powered for a large pissed off bruin.

Mine is a S&W model 57 .41mag with 250gr Federal castcore bullets.

[Rangerrich99]

It's always amusing to me that some people will try to reinvent the wheel and decide that something like a 9mm will be adequate against a large predator like a bear that's intent on turning them into lunch.

All one really has to do is remember something like the Miami-Dade shooting, where Platt was shot multiple times and yet continued to fight for more than 4 minutes.

Even if the average black bear weighs in at only 200 lbs., we're talking about an animal that is much stronger and faster than any man. What do we think might happen if we shoot a very angry bear, and don't hit its CNS? It's possible that it could continue to attack for several minutes. Which means that the vast majority of us are going to be bear poop.

So with the above in mind, is a 9mm adequate for penetrating the skill or spine of an adult bear? Well, without getting into all the math, it takes about 650 lbs/psi to crack a human skull. The average 9mm only produces about 400 lbs. or less of energy at impact. And a bear's forehead is thicker and tougher than a man's. I can't remember how much more, but it's significant.

At the very least, I'd choose a caliber that produces the minimum impact energy to penetrate a bear's skull. If not 2x or more. Just my two cents, of course. Though i have two friends that are Alaskan bear hunting guides, and both carry guns that start with "4s".

[FrankenMauser]

So with the above in mind, is a 9mm adequate for penetrating the skill or spine of an adult bear? Well, without getting into all the math, it takes about 650 lbs/psi to crack a human skull. The average 9mm only produces about 400 lbs. or less of energy at impact. And a bear's forehead is thicker and tougher than a man's. I can't remember how much more, but it's significant.

Psi and lb-ft are not compatible or comparable units. Think of it like comparing the burst pressure of an over-heated coke can, versus the twisting force required to open a pickle jar.
But, for the record, the cross-sectional area of a .355" diameter 9mm projectile is 0.098979803542163 square inches. That should save a little time if you do decide to 'get into all the math'.


I completely understand the point you're trying to make (even though I disagree with your opinion), but that argument mixes units in a way that just doesn't work.

[Rangerrich99]

Yeah that happens when I'm trying to multi-task with a time limit involved. Doesn't change the fact that 9mm bullets are either inadequate to penetrate a bear's skull or at best borderline. Thanks for the cross-sectional area of a 9mm though. Some time next month i might have a chance to play around with that.

[GarandTd]

I don't think 9mm is a great choice for bear defense. That being said, it's the biggest handgun I have. So, in my situation, it beats 22lr and 380 auto. Until I acquire a 357 magnum, and I will eventually, the 9mm has to serve the purpose.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Rangerrich99

Yeah that happens when I'm trying to multi-task with a time limit involved. Doesn't change the fact that 9mm bullets are either inadequate to penetrate a bear's skull or at best borderline. Thanks for the cross-sectional area of a 9mm though. Some time next month i might have a chance to play around with that.

https://www.quora.com/In-hunting-wha...f-of-its-skull

[44 AMP]

I took a look at the bullet the OP linked to. Interesting, we're shooting Phillips Screwdriver tips now.

OK, its solid copper alloy...yawns...

And its specs are EXACTLY the same as the WWI and WWII German FMJ, a 115gr @ 1150fps. I don't see how any kind of tip, or alloy composition will change the performance to a significant degree.

I do find it amusing how people are so concerned about 9mm shooting through people and walls and hitting other people somewhere downrange, but at the same time think the same ammo won't shoot half way through a bear.

[tipoc]

Here we go. Bear killed by a 9mm in 2016. It's a good story and pics.

https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...th-9mm-pistol/

It's more the story of the right bullet.

Here a bear was killed with a 454 Casull.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/photo...-killed-alaska

Here are 37 different incidents of defense against bears over the years. they are told by caliber used from 9mm, .357, 40, 10mm, 41 Mag, 44 Mag and 45 acp. 97% success rate.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...#axzz5PWss3NX5

Make your choices.

Decades back Jeff Cooper was criticized for saying that if you shot a .357 revolver at speed better than a 44 or 45 Colt, then carry the .357 for defense against bear. The point being that accurate hits to vital areas were better than more powerful misses. So go from there.

tipoc

[jr24]

In my area, full of small black bears far more likely to run than maul? 9mm might be OK if that's what ya have, I prefer .357 or .45 +P w/255 hardcasts.

Back when I lived in AK and came within spitting distance of a couple 900+ lb Coastal Browns? My 310 gr hardcast "Hammerheads" and my rifle didnt seem like enough, luckily I never had to find out.

But meek, small, lower 48 blacks? Loud noises and spray is probably far more useful, then again if you get between a ma and her Cubs you might be wishing for more than 9mm.

[Lohman446]

Let's set aside the .460, the .500 and the like that are the rough size and weight of a small rifle or shotgun anyways.

No pistol is "enough" for bear. I happen to carry a 10MM with "Xtreme Penetrator" ammunition when in bear country but I am kind of kidding myself.

People have killed bear with a 9MM. People have killed bear unarmed. Would I rather try it with a 9MM? Many many times over.

A handgun against an aggressive bear is just a shot of hope. Get too far into considering it and you will abandon the idea at all and give up that last shot of hope.

Is a 9MM enough to try to hunt down and confront that aggressive bear? Nope. But what handgun with the caveats above is? Its better than nothing and at least gives you a chance which is all anything else does anyways.

[tipoc]

Is a 9MM enough to try to hunt down and confront that aggressive bear? Nope. But what handgun with the caveats above is? Its better than nothing and at least gives you a chance which is all anything else does anyways.

I'm positive that you didn't mean to imply that 9mm is "enough to hunt down an aggressive bear". Likely mis-spoke.

To hunt a bear, aggressive or not, is another matter than defense against an aggressive bear. With the former you have time to plan and choose the right long gun or an appropriate handgun and bullet for hunting large game. One shot one kill.

"Hunting down" an aggressive bear implies that the bear has left the area, is no longer an immediate danger but for some reason needs to be followed and killed. I wouldn't do that with a 9mm. That needs to be thought out some.

Defense against a bear attack is another matter than hunting a bear.

[Lohman446]

I may have misspoke.

Do I WANT to use a 9MM against a bear? Nope

Do I WANT to use any handgun against a bear? With the exception of things like the .460, .500, and the ilk NOPE.

Is the 9MM better than no gun? Yep.

If a 9MM is what you have changing to _________ is not going to make enough difference to matter.

[Erno86]

If that 9mm or other calibers is a semi auto...it poses more risk of a failure to fire, if the muzzle is pressed against the bears hide or mouth; which could possibly cause the slide to back off a little bit.

[FrankenMauser]

If that 9mm or other calibers is a semi auto...it poses more risk of a failure to fire, if the muzzle is pressed against the bears hide or mouth; which could possibly cause the slide to back off a little bit.

Then go for the testicles.
Every animal I have ever seen shot in the testicles has died. ...Including one antelope that was ONLY shot in the testicles. (He lost his will to live and just keeled over. Not a joke. It was the only wound on his body, and bullet ONLY damaged the testicles and scrotum.)

[44 AMP]

Every animal I have ever seen shot in the testicles has died.

Ok, but I'm thinking that if the bear wasn't really mad, before...

I'm thinking hitting them there would be a tough shot, as normally when bears attack, the end with the teeth is closer to you....

[JohnKSa]

A friend of mine shot at a departing male hog that had been destroying his property. He was using birdshot at a fairly decent range and the shot hit the hog in the aforementioned anatomical region. He indicated that it made a tremendous noise and then pretty much just gave up and laid down even though it was not mortally injured.

I thought it was an anomaly, but perhaps not.

[44 AMP]

A friend of mine saw something very similar with a deer. A poor shot dis-membered (de-membered??) the buck, and it let out a "piteous" noise, and just stood there (probably begging to be finished off) then fell dead,.

SO, it might be a worthwhile tactic to consider, if the opportunity presents itself. No need to discuss what ammo is best though, I'm sure ball ammo will do it...