Your opinion on "non-lethal firearms"

Keksmonster0991 · November 16, 2011, 04:52 PM

Hi !

Wall of text inc. !

So I'am from Germany and finally found the courage to post in TFL.
Great Forum and way better than most Boards we have here

I like Firearms and gatherd quite some knowledge but still I'm struggling to post my question here.

Sadly our laws are stronger and I can't own any (real) PERSONAL Firearm without risking financial ruin ATM.
So my expiriences are limited to shooting clubs with leased weapons or plinking in the backyard. Only exception was a .38 Revolver which was shown to me by the Uncle of my Ex-GF.

Finally in Sep. 10 i got my "kleiner Waffenschein" which is similar to your CCP.
But it only allows me to carry gas-guns which fire a CS/OC mix up to 15 feet.
( defined as firearms under our law

)

I've practiced any recommended drill and currently carry a licensed copy of the SigSauer P239 OWB and a knife + flashlight. Most LEO's and people here say it's "bad juju" to carry ANY defensive item with you ,,because it WILL get you killed."

But I feel safe...a lot safer. Most crimes here are commited with fists or broken bottles.

I would like to see some opinions from overseas

Do you think these kind of "Weapon" can stop an attacker or is it just a dangerous toy ?

Any advice is welcome

Hope this thread is not too OT...

Greetings
*bows*

Pics can be shown if interested.

PawPaw · November 16, 2011, 05:12 PM

I prefer to call them "less lethal". Non-lethal sets up the expectation that no one can be killed by them, and that is simply not the case. If you find someone who is allergic to OC and give them a good nose-full, then they're in danger of death.

Nothing is non-lethal. Not even this keyboard that I use to type this message.

Quote:

But I feel safe...a lot safer. Most crimes here are commited with fists or broken bottles.

If you feel safer, then you've accomplised your goal. Be sure to remain situationally aware, don't get into any situations where you might need to use it, and follow all local laws. You'll be fine.

TexasJustice7 · November 16, 2011, 05:19 PM

QUOTE: Keekesmonstoer0991
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to see some opinions from overseas
Do you think these kind of "Weapon" can stop an attacker or is it just a dangerous toy ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that they are better than nothing. Am thankful I live in Texas, USA
a gun friendly state. Over here there are people who carry stun guns depending upon legality of such items, others pepper spray. I would hate to live in a country where I could not carry a gun for self defense. Over here there are "Killing zones", such as federal property where only criminals or police carry guns. These laws ensure that criminals have an advantage over law abiding citisens. I refuse to live under such an arrangement. Sounds like your country is a whole lot like Illinois, USA, a place I never go,and a place from which I buy no products made there.
But I think Germany probably has less of a crime problem than the USA.

rem44m · November 16, 2011, 05:43 PM

What kind of gas does it carry/shoot? The only self defense account I have heard the gas was not effective, here is the the story and I have posted the link below the story-

---------I'd like to tell a story of something that happened to me last week, because I no longer know what to think of the entire affair. I didn't invent any of the following (I know I can't prove it here, but I have an eyewitness).

I live in a German city, and for the past year carried a 9mm five shot pistol that fires CS gas, as real guns are forbidden in this country, and never needed it. I have been assaulted before and have to go to work through a bad part of town on the bike.

A girl and I had visited friends late Friday night (it was 1.30 in the morning) and were talking in front their door while she unlocked her motorcycle. A drunk couple came out a nearby pub; the man immediately started to make derogatory remarks about the motorbike while the woman grinned. I stayed quiet and began to feel uneasy. I wish I had run. Three or four more people came up. A man accosted me (the usual ****, "pretty lady, how about the two of us?") und took hold of my knees. I immediately yelled at him to let go (did not call him names), but couldn't move away because I was holding my bicycle with stuff loaded on it. He was offended, and grabbed me again. I let the bike go and ran; he followed, telling me he'd show me, and I realized we were surrounded by drunks. I pulled the pistol and twice loudly warned him to stop, and fired a warning shot to the side. He stopped immediately. The first guy yelled, and jumped at me. No kidding, he jumped karate style with both both feet ahead, and I fired gas at him. Karate Man fell on his behind, and I was very impressed. The horror was, the man was so drunk and angry he got up again and promised to kill me. I ran, yelling my head off. He followed, and I emptied the gas pistol at him to no effect. I ran into the pub. Nobody helped me, and the guy dragged me across the floor by my hair, beating me until the man we'd visited came (the other girl rang his doorbell like mad) and got me out of there, as he is very big. The result: the police tells me I cannot charge the guy who handled me with sexual assault "because he didn't do enough" (it's not the police's fault, it's the laws here. I reacted *too early*, that is, before he raped me), and *I* am facing charges of causing physical harm with a dangerous weapon.

The laws here in Germany concerning weapons, even gas ones, are restrictive and totally perverted: The "karate man" is unharmed because I know the law, and therefore did not shoot him in the face, which would have really injured, but also effectively stopped him. Legal gas ammunition is so weak in this country it is a joke.

I did not dare shoot him on the ground, because that is injuring a helpless person, so he could get up and chase me.

He may attack me simply for defending myself from a sexual assault.

And of course the weapon has been confiscated because I am "not able to use it properly". That is true, but not the way the law means it. If I had used the gun properly, that is had been more ruthless, I would have shot him full in the face, and some more while he was down. And I would have been unharmed.

But now I am a "gunslinging crazy female". I also am very worried, and when I quiet down after writing (or telling) my angry story, I am very afraid.

But I wasn't raped.--------

http://www.streetpro.com/usp/stories.html

Keksmonster0991 · November 16, 2011, 05:57 PM

I live in a small Town miles away from the next major City.... but our crime rate here is about mid lev I guess. Drugs are the major problem here

Mostly junkies or bored groups of teenangers who will beat you for just one wrong look at them or sometimes even just for the thrill.

Our gun laws are just ridiculous.

The only legal options we have are Pepper-Spray / small Knives or those "guns".

Maybe someday I can travel to a much much better place

Edit : It shoots 9x22 cartridges filled either with 120mg OC or 80mg CS. I've tested something outdoors and even the edge of the Gas cloud burns horrible.

Also the active agent of CS or OC is regulated by law.
E.G. So a normal spray-can of CS is not allowed to have over 80mg of the irritant.

So I have two "guns" : My SIG holds 8 cartridges and my P30 15. So it's like I'am having fifteen cans of CS or OC in my pocket.

And if I can't stop my attacker with 15 cans of CS or OC then something went way to wrong.

Saw this story also....and IMHO I can't belive it's 100% true. Maybe she was just a really really bad shot

Edit 2 : Also in the Story she says that she didn't shoot him in the face. But these things are made for this case. If needed right in the face an then run like hell. Under our law a shot right in the face in this case is justified even if the BG ends up blind. This story contains some errors but explaining them would be way OT.

kozak6 · November 16, 2011, 08:29 PM

"Less lethal" firearms never really caught on in the US outside of police use.

Pepper spray is widely carried, but that's about it.

In most states, it isn't that difficult to get a permit to carry a concealed firearm. In an increasing number of states, a permit isn't even necessary.

raimius · November 17, 2011, 08:43 PM

They are better than nothing. Gas pistols give you a little bit of range, and can provide an opportunity to escape. That said, they are an inferior weapon. They rely on pain to induce compliance or incapacitate someone. That does not always work. Some people's bodies do not react to OC/CS with the normal severity. Others may be so drugged up that the pain does not bother them.

I would not view them as a method to stop an attack, but as a tool to buy you a few more seconds to either escape or deploy a better method of defense (if cornered).

November 16, 2011, 04:52 PM	#1
Keksmonster0991 Junior Member Join Date: November 16, 2011 Posts: 4	Your opinion on "non-lethal firearms" Hi ! Wall of text inc. ! So I'am from Germany and finally found the courage to post in TFL. Great Forum and way better than most Boards we have here I like Firearms and gatherd quite some knowledge but still I'm struggling to post my question here. Sadly our laws are stronger and I can't own any (real) PERSONAL Firearm without risking financial ruin ATM. So my expiriences are limited to shooting clubs with leased weapons or plinking in the backyard. Only exception was a .38 Revolver which was shown to me by the Uncle of my Ex-GF. Finally in Sep. 10 i got my "kleiner Waffenschein" which is similar to your CCP. But it only allows me to carry gas-guns which fire a CS/OC mix up to 15 feet. ( defined as firearms under our law ) I've practiced any recommended drill and currently carry a licensed copy of the SigSauer P239 OWB and a knife + flashlight. Most LEO's and people here say it's "bad juju" to carry ANY defensive item with you ,,because it WILL get you killed." But I feel safe...a lot safer. Most crimes here are commited with fists or broken bottles. I would like to see some opinions from overseas Do you think these kind of "Weapon" can stop an attacker or is it just a dangerous toy ? Any advice is welcome Hope this thread is not too OT... Greetings bows Pics can be shown if interested.

November 16, 2011, 05:57 PM	#5
Keksmonster0991 Junior Member Join Date: November 16, 2011 Posts: 4	I live in a small Town miles away from the next major City.... but our crime rate here is about mid lev I guess. Drugs are the major problem here Mostly junkies or bored groups of teenangers who will beat you for just one wrong look at them or sometimes even just for the thrill. Our gun laws are just ridiculous. The only legal options we have are Pepper-Spray / small Knives or those "guns". Maybe someday I can travel to a much much better place Edit : It shoots 9x22 cartridges filled either with 120mg OC or 80mg CS. I've tested something outdoors and even the edge of the Gas cloud burns horrible. Also the active agent of CS or OC is regulated by law. E.G. So a normal spray-can of CS is not allowed to have over 80mg of the irritant. So I have two "guns" : My SIG holds 8 cartridges and my P30 15. So it's like I'am having fifteen cans of CS or OC in my pocket. And if I can't stop my attacker with 15 cans of CS or OC then something went way to wrong. Saw this story also....and IMHO I can't belive it's 100% true. Maybe she was just a really really bad shot Edit 2 : Also in the Story she says that she didn't shoot him in the face. But these things are made for this case. If needed right in the face an then run like hell. Under our law a shot right in the face in this case is justified even if the BG ends up blind. This story contains some errors but explaining them would be way OT. Last edited by Keksmonster0991; November 16, 2011 at 06:33 PM.

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November 16, 2011, 05:19 PM	#3
TexasJustice7 Senior Member Join Date: May 10, 2011 Posts: 213	QUOTE: Keekesmonstoer0991 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would like to see some opinions from overseas Do you think these kind of "Weapon" can stop an attacker or is it just a dangerous toy ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I think that they are better than nothing. Am thankful I live in Texas, USA a gun friendly state. Over here there are people who carry stun guns depending upon legality of such items, others pepper spray. I would hate to live in a country where I could not carry a gun for self defense. Over here there are "Killing zones", such as federal property where only criminals or police carry guns. These laws ensure that criminals have an advantage over law abiding citisens. I refuse to live under such an arrangement. Sounds like your country is a whole lot like Illinois, USA, a place I never go,and a place from which I buy no products made there. But I think Germany probably has less of a crime problem than the USA.

November 16, 2011, 05:43 PM	#4
rem44m Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2011 Location: Utah Posts: 171	What kind of gas does it carry/shoot? The only self defense account I have heard the gas was not effective, here is the the story and I have posted the link below the story- ---------I'd like to tell a story of something that happened to me last week, because I no longer know what to think of the entire affair. I didn't invent any of the following (I know I can't prove it here, but I have an eyewitness). I live in a German city, and for the past year carried a 9mm five shot pistol that fires CS gas, as real guns are forbidden in this country, and never needed it. I have been assaulted before and have to go to work through a bad part of town on the bike. A girl and I had visited friends late Friday night (it was 1.30 in the morning) and were talking in front their door while she unlocked her motorcycle. A drunk couple came out a nearby pub; the man immediately started to make derogatory remarks about the motorbike while the woman grinned. I stayed quiet and began to feel uneasy. I wish I had run. Three or four more people came up. A man accosted me (the usual ***, "pretty lady, how about the two of us?") und took hold of my knees. I immediately yelled at him to let go (did not call him names), but couldn't move away because I was holding my bicycle with stuff loaded on it. He was offended, and grabbed me again. I let the bike go and ran; he followed, telling me he'd show me, and I realized we were surrounded by drunks. I pulled the pistol and twice loudly warned him to stop, and fired a warning shot to the side. He stopped immediately. The first guy yelled, and jumped at me. No kidding, he jumped karate style with both both feet ahead, and I fired gas at him. Karate Man fell on his behind, and I was very impressed. The horror was, the man was so drunk and angry he got up again and promised to kill me. I ran, yelling my head off. He followed, and I emptied the gas pistol at him to no effect. I ran into the pub. Nobody helped me, and the guy dragged me across the floor by my hair, beating me until the man we'd visited came (the other girl rang his doorbell like mad) and got me out of there, as he is very big. The result: the police tells me I cannot charge the guy who handled me with sexual assault "because he didn't do enough" (it's not the police's fault, it's the laws here. I reacted too early, that is, before he raped me), and I* am facing charges of causing physical harm with a dangerous weapon. The laws here in Germany concerning weapons, even gas ones, are restrictive and totally perverted: The "karate man" is unharmed because I know the law, and therefore did not shoot him in the face, which would have really injured, but also effectively stopped him. Legal gas ammunition is so weak in this country it is a joke. I did not dare shoot him on the ground, because that is injuring a helpless person, so he could get up and chase me. He may attack me simply for defending myself from a sexual assault. And of course the weapon has been confiscated because I am "not able to use it properly". That is true, but not the way the law means it. If I had used the gun properly, that is had been more ruthless, I would have shot him full in the face, and some more while he was down. And I would have been unharmed. But now I am a "gunslinging crazy female". I also am very worried, and when I quiet down after writing (or telling) my angry story, I am very afraid. But I wasn't raped.-------- http://www.streetpro.com/usp/stories.html

November 16, 2011, 08:29 PM	#6
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	"Less lethal" firearms never really caught on in the US outside of police use. Pepper spray is widely carried, but that's about it. In most states, it isn't that difficult to get a permit to carry a concealed firearm. In an increasing number of states, a permit isn't even necessary.

November 17, 2011, 08:43 PM	#7
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	They are better than nothing. Gas pistols give you a little bit of range, and can provide an opportunity to escape. That said, they are an inferior weapon. They rely on pain to induce compliance or incapacitate someone. That does not always work. Some people's bodies do not react to OC/CS with the normal severity. Others may be so drugged up that the pain does not bother them. I would not view them as a method to stop an attack, but as a tool to buy you a few more seconds to either escape or deploy a better method of defense (if cornered).