Do You Challenge? With a Gun?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

+1 Stratus.

A comment on

Out in the public challanging is extremely dangerous because some concealed carrying bystander or police etc, might be motivated to interfere and "defend" the "harmless and unarmed" who is "being attacked" and that might lead to two good guys fighting each other.

What ifs are unknowable. I could easy say that if a bad guy holding a bottle was approaching you to bean you and you were clearly reported as challenging the person to not move, drop the bottle, you were in fear of your life, don't make me shoot you or whatever, that might go over better than:

Gee - the big dude was yelling something at the little dude who just shot him.

These things can go either way. From pages of conversation, I think it is pretty clear to anyone sensible that as said above, challenging with a gun if tactically practical is the best way to go. As I said, it is taught by the vast majority of instructors.

Interestingly, Glocktalk was running the same debate and folks came out with the standard of don't draw unless you ARE going to shoot him.

As I said earlier, empirically, it seems deterrence works for cops and civilians. Evidence is a good thing.

[Optical Serenity]

Originally Posted by stratus

Yeah, that always bothered me too. When I was more of a newbie to a lot of these ideas, I had interpreted it as "don't draw unless you're going to immediately shoot, otherwise don't draw". I am honestly not sure why some people stick with this viewpoint. Granted, there are some situations in which that is your only option: you encounter someone in your living room, they rush you. That's not much of a dilemma; there's little or no time to react, and you have to shoot.

+1

Very well said Stratus. I agree, if someone rushes you inside your house and they have some sort of weapon, or even if they don't and they refuse your commands, you may not even have time to challenge, the challenge will have a grain weight.

[Bill Johnson]

Their is a difference of drawing against a home intuder(That may be 20 feet away,rather than 10 and charging you,where you don't have time to warn. IF you have to Draw,do it without pointing at him.....the Court holds us to a higher level of responsibility when its pointed,rather than drawn(where one couldbring it up with short point aim within 1/4 of a second,if not less with training.

A if not pointed,no Change of accidental discharge,
B no small chance of shooting somebody who was in at the wrong place,wrong time,like a relative or one who came in unlocked thinking wrong house,oops. WE all make mistakes,i've walked into wrong houses a couple times,others have with mine too,the DO unto others what you wish they would do to you....i sure wouldn't want to have a gun in my face when i'm not a threat.

Even police when they draw a weapon and they have one edge/probable cause,we can't use that,they can do offense,we can't.

Even the police will do all they can to have to not shoot the guy,even saying drop the gun(if its pointed at them,most often they will shoot the perp.)

And we should do the same, a Gun and a CCP is a license to carry for protection,but its not a license to kill if we just FEEL like it,we need to learn the laws how the Statutes and Case precedent even is a good idea....

Its been sad better to be judged by 12 than to be Carried out by 6....I respectfully disagree
Judged by 12 can send you to prison where you could be killed there or Raped or both,many in there have Ayds
the KEY is to experience........Neither.....So unless one defends with GOOD CAuse potentially murder on us,or grave serious bodily injury,or kidnapping or Rape,those are the ones listed in the law(or defending another to a degree no greater than our own)

except when we are outside and obligated to retreat(WHEN we can).....the KEY is this,the Statutes and the Courts/court precedent dEfines what GOOD CAuse is(its not the we feel threatened,those are feelings,not court or statute facts)
and the PRosecutors such as the district atty's office also know the law very well,and they would search all of it.

one mistake,guaranteed your probably doing to do time,plus lose your permits for life,and the guns will be impounded.

Plus one needs to defend even if justifiable
$10,000 roughly if your cleared,prosecuted even with plea bargaining can run up to near $100,000.. . A Good way to avoid this,is if a dangerous person does approach you
(And thats if its not just opinion but your sure),Walk away.

Or run away,saying i don't want any trouble,the louder the better,i'd do it in my house,go right to the safe room if you have it(and if not get one and work it with family)

Else one is unprepared for the unlikely 1/1000 houses robbed,but would come at the Worst time for you with your family yelling.

then WArn,no warnings leads to possible prosecution,the argument from the prosecuting atty can be this:,YOU carefully waited like a stalker,yes you seen the man come in and go for the tv set,so you took careful aim thinking how dare that wicked perp

(and the Da can say yes he was a perp),and you executed him for having the gall to break into your house,yes he was a stupid man but was the death penalty what a prudent and reasonable person or jury,would they have given the perp that for simple theft,or even grand theft.
IF they say no its excessive, one won't go to jail for First degree murder.

However 3rd degree or Voluntary manslaughter one probably would be looking at....and $100,000 or near to defend. So draw if you must,don't point unless you do intend on either doing lawful restaint until the police come,its in the law codes,and never shoot unless they charge anyways and don't listen to your warnings....this goes for if they end up charging your family,you can defend the same way legally.. Albeit the Several thousand $$ charge,its the down side,the upside is why its so good to avoid shooting ,A it keeps one out of jail if they do it wrong
B it avoid killing the person,even if he is nasty,better citizens arrest and 95% submit and don't charge but surrender or run away or jump out of your window
C it saves you up to 10 grand for shooting him legally
D it saves you the grief at the trial when the family members who may not have cared about the perp show up wailing about how their loved one was a good just misled(even if he was a Turkey)

E,if possible have anyone call the police while the person is kept at bay preferebly from a distance,sorry for the long post. bill

[johnsonrlp]

Regardless of the situation
A. Know your local laws.
B. Don't lose your tactical advantage.
C. Don't shoot unless you have to.
D If you're shooting, don't stop until you're sure

[Sum1_Special]

Finally... Some folks I can agree with.

[Winston007]

The "Pearis" incident (where home owner shoots Japanese student)
No one has mentioned how Pearis has felt about this shooting.
He no longer has a gun in the house and he regrets ever having a gun.

and as for comments #89 Casingpoint and #99 Skeeter1 you guys do not value human life.

YOU DON'T SHOOT PEOPLE JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE IN YOUR HOUSE!!

[revjen45]

Mr. Peairs was acquitted of criminal charges but lost a civil suit filed by Yoshihiro's parents. They used the money to support gun control. He was emotionally damaged, as would any sane person be under the circumstances.

If I entered my home to find a stranger I would wish to establish the circumstances before opening fire. The specifics of the situation would determine the specifics of my actions. It is very difficult to say what you would do, because the totality of the circumstances cannot be posited in a hypothetical. Suffice it to say I would not shoot without at least trying to understand what was going on in the time available to make the decision.

[Sum1_Special]

and as for comments #89 Casingpoint and #99 Skeeter1 you guys do not value human life.

I agree, I shudder to think people who take human life so lightly carry, or even own guns. I hope I never run into people like this in real life, and I hope if they actually do what they say they will do, they pay the price for it.

[Rusty Stud]

I'm sry but im confused. apparently after reading the post i've noticed there is
a difference in "drawing" and "pointing" and i was just curious, If you draw your weapon but dont point at the guy then where exactly is your weapon aimed?

Personally I thought there where only 3 main steps to do in this situation.

1. draw yur gun, and point at the person. (safty off)

2. Yell at them, alot

3. shoot, if they run at you, or somone else.

I chose this linup because it seems rational and is what I would probibly do in a home invasion setting, granted I've never had any occurences yet.
and keep in mind this is what i would do if the threat was proven very real.

Is this a bad procedure? please pick it apart and tell me where it fails, Knowledge is power, and I want yours.

[Capt. Charlie]

I'm sry but im confused. apparently after reading the post i've noticed there is a difference in "drawing" and "pointing" and i was just curious, If you draw your weapon but dont point at the guy then where exactly is your weapon aimed?

It's pointed downward, at a 45 degree angle, in a 2-handed grip. This is called the "low ready". The low ready is a sort of active standby, and is used for such things as clearing buildings. Actually pointing at the target is called the "high ready" or point/aim stance. Switch to this when a target's been identified and confirmed, or when kicking doors. While clearing a building, for example, you'll switch back and forth between the two many times.

On a lot of police departments (including mine), coming to the low ready is not considered a use of force. Going to the high ready is, and requires all the paperwork, and headaches that go with it .