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February 19, 2018, 10:22 AM | #1 |
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Fire Forming Same Cartridge Brass
This discussion has begun on a separate unrelated thread, but I feel like this deserves it's own thread as there is much knowledge for all to gain here.
Without reliving all the history I will just get to the problem. I have 30-06 cases that were sized too sort by methods unorthodox and hasty. The brass is Nosler that has been fired twice and needs to be fire formed to bring the shoulder forward .017". There are some that say it's too dangerous and some that say go ahead and fire form it. Then there is me who will get stuck in analysis paralysis with my OCD and lack of real experience on the subject but with a viral curiosity. There are several things I am considering. I could use some cheap bullets seated to the lands and a starting load but...will my extractor pin on my Savage 110 still push the bullet forward into the rifling a bit creating a gap at the case head? I will be conducting an experiment to see if it does and by how much this morning. I could use the COW method which will use no bullets but will also require some experimentation to find the correct powder charge to fully inflate the brass. I could do it the Slamfire way and lube the bullets up so that they slide back as they are fired preventing case head stretching. I cannot decide on a way. How would you do it? |
February 19, 2018, 10:49 AM | #2 |
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I had some 308 that was too short - about 0.02”. I tried all kinds of things - all resulted in separation. It just isn’t worth the risk - I chucked the cases in the trash.
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February 19, 2018, 10:56 AM | #3 | |
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You can greased your bullets, I do not want anything between the case and chamber but air, I am a case former and have no infatuation with greasing my bullets. I have a pile of streaker bullets, I do not shoot them because cleaning the barrel after the streaks are left in the barrel takes a special formula. F. Guffey |
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February 19, 2018, 11:08 AM | #4 | |
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February 19, 2018, 11:09 AM | #5 | |
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First I had to determine if it could be done, after that I took my dies to his shop and started digging, We went through thousands of cases and then settled on LC Match 30/06 pull down cases, I formed his 308 W cases from 30/06 cases, I did not ream and or turn the necks, it seemed the new owner wanted a tight neck because he read on the internet it was not possible to have accuracy without a tight neck. He is the smith that will not allow me to use my 'no name' lube he insist we use Imperial and or Dillon, you will not believe how difficult it is to make that stuff look good. F. Guffey |
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February 19, 2018, 11:46 AM | #6 |
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You know my thoughts and actions on the subject, so I will not repeat them again.
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February 19, 2018, 11:53 AM | #7 |
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Thanks!
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February 19, 2018, 12:05 PM | #8 |
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As I said somewhere else, the key is not to allow the brass to clink to the chamber wall in forward position without the bolt face supporting the head.
Light load is one way. Lubing the brass (not the bullet) with warmer-than-light loads is another. There are other methods of course. Now you shouldn't start if you don't want to experiment. Handloading itself is experimenting. I think much has been talked about. Part of it is just repeats. -TL Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk |
February 19, 2018, 12:15 PM | #9 | |
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February 19, 2018, 12:29 PM | #10 | |
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I used COW and it worked. -TL Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk |
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February 19, 2018, 12:59 PM | #11 |
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17 thou is a lot. On a .30-06 it means you have no headspace at all.
I'd just pitch 'em. Fiddling with short .30-06 cases is not worth the time and effort. Graf's will sell you 100 pieces of new, primed, Federal brass (bullets pulled for some reason) for $37.99.
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February 19, 2018, 01:43 PM | #12 | |
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There is another length that is measured from the datum to the end of the neck, that one comes in handy when trimming cases with trimmers that set-up on the shoulder. When trimming off of the shoulder it helps if the reloader can keep up with the length of the chamber from the datum to the bolt face. F. Guffey |
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February 19, 2018, 01:49 PM | #13 | |
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It means nothing to most but my favorite forming die is the 308 W forming die, next? There is the 243W forming die. F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; February 19, 2018 at 01:50 PM. Reason: add ed |
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February 19, 2018, 01:54 PM | #14 |
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T. O'Heir.... no headspace at all? I have too much. I must be reading you wrong. It's .017" that I am short.
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February 19, 2018, 01:58 PM | #15 |
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Yosemite - I tried COW, several weights of bullets with different powder charges, crimp and no crimp. Nothing worked. I don’t have the patience to find just the combination to stretch the brass just enough, at the right pressure, so as to not rupture it. Too much trouble for the risk involved so I tossed them.
Guffey - I may regret asking but why would I form 308 cases from 30-06 when I can buy 308 cases? |
February 19, 2018, 01:58 PM | #16 |
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If I am understanding correctly the case has .017 forward movement? Will a primer fire using COW? I have never done any fire forming for my own guns but have witnessed and helped a time or two and they guys who were doing it put the bullet in the lands so the head was back against the bolt to prevent misfires.
Is this the same rifle that had headpsace issues due to the bolt head change out ? Did you ever get that corrected ?
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February 19, 2018, 03:21 PM | #17 | |
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Again, manufacturers of components do not make cases for reloaders that know what they are doing. I have no problem solving problems with the 308W chamber with 30/06 cases. When I have a problem with 30/06 chambers I solve the problem with 280 Remington cases; with .051" additional case length from the end of the neck to the case head I can not miss. F. Guffey |
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February 19, 2018, 03:24 PM | #18 | |
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February 19, 2018, 04:02 PM | #19 |
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06 casings are cheap, comparitively.
If you were looking at 425 Westley Richards casings $109 for a box of 20, IF you can find them, it would be different. If you really insist on using those casings i would anneal them, load low-mid charge, with bullet into the lands. |
February 19, 2018, 04:22 PM | #20 | |
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-TL Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk |
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February 19, 2018, 04:23 PM | #21 |
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I was too wondering about making 308 outta 30-06. I have purchased a bunch (200-300) of inexpensive 7.62x51 LC once fired cases that work quire well in my 308. I just clean, FL size, measure and trim if necessary, remove primer crimps and load just like I do my 308 brass (different powder charges reached in a work up). I get several 7/8" groups and an occasional 3/4" group in my Ruger bolt gun, just as good as Hornady or Nosler brass...
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February 19, 2018, 05:30 PM | #22 |
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The recommendation to first sort the brass to identify those with the problem,and pitch the short ones might very well be the most practical and the safest choice.
If you don't already know,you can get a hardware store aluminum spacer bushing with a .375 plus clearance hole in it . That and your calipers won't give you a dimension to measure your brass,but you can compare it to other,correct length brass. Now,as far as recommending "What next?" That's a lot like asking "How thin of ice can I go out ice fishing on?" The methods you have suggested ,on your own suggest you know what it is you want to accomplish and some methods that may well achieve it. And you have to decide how thick you want the ice to be before you walk on it,because you are the one who will be all alone in the ice water in the middle of the lake if you get it wrong. If you do decide to try COW,consider you will be spending the money for the COW plus a pound of Bullseye plus primers. In Ken Waters "Pet Loads",IIRC, Ken suggests about 10% of a normal charge weight in Bullseye,so about 5 1/2 gr.. If I was not getting the results with 7 gr,I'd slow way down.Bullseye is pretty sudden stuff. You might well have $25 or better in trying to save the brass. Cheap 30 cal bullets,long seated? I'd guess 170 gr round nose 30-30 might be as cheap as any. Can you get those much cheaper than $18 or $20? A couple dollars worth of primers,powder ? you get about 140 loads for a pound of powder.Thats abouy 18 cents a shot for power,3 cents for a primer,and what?15 cents for a bullet. 36 cents to pull the trigger. How much does new brass cost? I'm just suggesting do the math on what will be what,three times fired brass? Good luck! Last edited by HiBC; February 19, 2018 at 05:37 PM. |
February 19, 2018, 06:14 PM | #23 |
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HiBC, that's about where I am. As much as I would like to toy with this I really think my money would best be spent on reliability. The thread is here to learn more than it is to do from. Through all of this Q&A I have learned that I will add a new step to my reloading process and that is to fire form the brass "properly". Before I would simply shoot rounds through a gun and dedicate those rounds to that gun and partial length size them. Now that I have been doing some measuring I see that all of those shot rounds have varying case head to datum lengths due to the many variables in powder charges, seating depths, etc. and now my gun is changed.
Moving forward I will use a more defined method to fire form... OR.. What if I fire the round through my Enfield first? It has a larger chamber. I could then partial size until it will just fit in my Savage. I believe that is what Mr. Guffey is eluding to in the stories about how he is sizing downward. I believe I might get more use from all the brass that way. Kind of like handing down clothes to the little brother. The only question is... Where will the shoulder move to when the sized brass from the Enfield is fired through the Savage? |
February 19, 2018, 07:09 PM | #24 |
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Run an 8mm neck expander into the case and then resize it properly
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February 19, 2018, 07:32 PM | #25 | |
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