Muzzleloading accessories

racsw · September 6, 2011, 10:35 AM

Hi,
I just bought a Savage 10ML-II muzzleloader. It has always had good reviews, so I wanted to take advantage of our 1 week muzzleloader season.
It's been over 35 years that I've shot a muzzleloader, the last one being a nice Allen Arms 50 cal. Hawken that I had to finish.

So now I am not sure what gadgets I need to load and prime it. It shoots smokeless powder, and I've gathered various opinions on what powders/primers/sabots/bullets offer good groups. I'm guessing a Lee dipper set, but I would like to keep it simple if possible.
I used to have these things that held measured powder, like small cannisters, that you filled, so you didn't have to measure in the field, but now I don't know what new things are out there.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Pahoo · September 6, 2011, 11:03 AM

Deleted

Pahoo · September 6, 2011, 11:06 AM

Sounds like you want to take it hunting so I'll just list some "Practicals" and let others list the "Particulars" .....

1) Field bag.
2) Quick Loaders with your "shot-string" QTY.-6 loads
3) Small field flask: QTY. 6 loads min.
4) Extra Sobots with projectile; 6-load min.
5) Short starter.
6) 209 primers & capper.
7) One worm jag and patch jag.
8) T-handle for ramrod.
9) Range time.

Be Safe !!!

racsw · September 6, 2011, 11:34 AM

I thought that the sabots eliminated patches.
Am I wrong?

What's a worm jag and patch jag?

Doyle · September 6, 2011, 11:53 AM

Worm jag is to fish out a stuck bullet (i.e. you seated your bullet before you put the powder in). Patch jag is a knurled cyclinder that helps a cleaning patch get good contact with the rifling. The patches aren't used when shooting, they are used to clean between shots.

I would say that for field carry (i.e. hunting) the 6 quick loaders were recommended will eliminate the need for any small flask, extra 209 primers, and extra bullets/sabots. I carry the load that is in my gun and only 3 extra quickloads. Also, with a modern inline, there is no need to carry a worm jag. As to a patch jag, I use the combo type that is a bullet seater/knurled patch jag all in one. If you use the right sabot (i.e. one that isn't too tight for your bore) you can also eliminate the short starter and the T-handle. Everything I need to carry in the field that is unique to a ML can be carried in a couple of jacket pockets.

To the above list, I would ADD. Small roll of masking tape (cover the muzzle and breach with a piece of tape if it starts raining). Masking tape also helps hold the quickload together. A nipple pick (or just a piece of fine wire) for cleaning out the breech plug.

Of course, my range box contains the full list of extras that one could possibly need.

highvel · September 6, 2011, 12:02 PM

Bullet BEFORE the powder, ohh, now I get it!

Doc Hoy · September 6, 2011, 12:08 PM

hearing protection and eye protection.

Pahoo · September 6, 2011, 12:41 PM

Quote:

What's a worm jag and patch jag?

Glad that it's you who is asking. I listed these by name so they can be identified but they have many uses. You are going to be using loose powder and you may have a misfire and have to pull the sabot load as well as break up caked loose powder and going to be looking for a tool to do so. Okay ??

I listed six quick loaders but that is your call. Also listed the small field flask and additional component for a may use of 12 rounds. My field bag is pretty small but still have plenty of room. Again, that is your call...

On my T-handle; My short-start, is a T-handle and depening on my hunter, I also have a T-Handle on the end of my rod. At any rate, I'm never without a T-handle. Your call ....

Another item you will need, is a small flashlight. ... Your call

Get out in the field and practice with your equipment. I have done this during squirrel season but feel my gear is already proven. ....

Be Safe !!!

racsw · September 6, 2011, 03:42 PM

Thank you for your help, guys.
I'm making a list to take to Gander Mtn.

BTW, nobody mentioned how to measure the powder. I assume a set of Lee measuring cups will do? Most of the loads I've seen are around 41 to 45 grains of IMR 4759 or similar.
I used to have an Ohaus scale, but I can't find it.

Hawg · September 6, 2011, 04:46 PM

Get an adjustable powder measure. Powder is by volume, not weight.

Lee McNelly · September 6, 2011, 05:00 PM

deleted

NoSecondBest · September 6, 2011, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Get an adjustable powder measure. Powder is by volume, not weight.

NOT TRUE in this case. DO NOT measure smokeless powder by volume. That is for black powder only. A Savage ML2 will shoot smokeless powder (as well as black powder and suitable substitutes) but almost everyone who owns one uses smokeless powder which is measured by weight. Again, do not measure smokeless powder by volume. The Lee Dipper sets are designed to measure powder by weight. Lee provides different sized dippers and a chart to cross reference for the powder you choose to coralate to weight. You cannot use a black powder measure to measure smokeless powder.

Pahoo · September 6, 2011, 07:04 PM

Not surprising how many times I refer people to their manuals. Most In-Liners and strict Traditionalist know squat about the Savage 10ML and what the manual says. Nor do we care, that is until we go there. ....

racsw
Back in your court to figure this detail out. ...

There are times when real men, do read manuals and;
Be Safe !!!

racsw · September 6, 2011, 07:07 PM

Thanks again, guys.
BTW, I won't have the gun for about 10 days to two weeks. When I get it, the Manual is the first to be read.

Pahoo · September 6, 2011, 07:35 PM

Hawg is right, when dealing with BP type replacement propellants ......

NoSecondBest is right when dealing with smokeless.

The manual;
https://s3.amazonaws.com/savagefiles...der_10mlii.pdf

Be Safe !!!

racsw · September 7, 2011, 02:43 AM

Where do you guys buy your loading supplies, like MMP black Sabots, Lee powder measures, Hornady 250/300 grain XTP, IMR powder, etc?

I can only find black powder muzzleloading supply houses.

Hawg · September 7, 2011, 04:22 AM

He did say smokeless. Guess I missed that the first time around. No do not measure smokeless by volume.

arcticap · September 7, 2011, 01:10 PM

These outfits sell many of the items that you're looking for:

http://www.grafs.com/

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/

http://www.midwayusa.com/

Doyle · September 7, 2011, 02:55 PM

Everything I need comes from Grafs except powder and caps. Because I'm too cheap to pay that $25 hasmat fee, I wait and stock up on powder and caps whenever I see a local store carrying them.

Wild Bill Bucks · September 8, 2011, 09:53 AM

Been shooting the ML II for about 3 years. I use 42 grains of Vit 110 behind a MMP sabot with a 250 grain Hornady .45 caliber Hollow point pistol bullet, set off by the CCI primer.
This load will print clover leafs at 100 yards with no clean out between shots, for 3 shots. This eliminates a lot of headaches associated with between shot cleaning during a hunt. Let's face it, if you can't shoot a deer in 3 shots, you need to get out of the woods and go back to the range for a while.

I bought one of the old stretch, bullet holder bands, that stretches over the stock of the rifle, and I use the bullet holders to hold my extra loads. This eliminates the need to carry a lot of stuff you have to dig through a bag or a pocket to re-load.

I went to my local dime store, and bought some of the small glitter tubes my wife uses for her hobbies. They are exactly the right size to house a sabot and a bullet, and will hold 42 grains of powder as well. I put a primer in each tube, and that way I only have one tube to worry about to re-load my rifle. Re-loading can be done in less than 10 seconds, primer and all.

When you get your rifle, you will notice that the rod that comes with it, has to have a handle put on it to use for clean out, so being able to shoot 3 shots without cleaning becomes really nice out in the woods.

The rod that comes with it, does great for loading, so it is really all you need to take with you when hunting, and further eliminates a lot of extra crap to have to keep up with.

I always carry a few patches in my pocket, but have never had to use them. The reason I bought the ML II was to get away from the crud build up that happens with traditional powders for muzzle loaders. Smokeless powder does not build up, so it keeps cleaning to a minimum.

As others have said ALWAYS weigh your charge or use a cup made specially
for smokeless powder. 4 or 5 grains of traditional powders won't make enough difference for you to notice in a load, but with smokeless, it will make a tremendous difference.

I buy my sabots directly from MMP in a 50 pack, 10 packs at a time. I buy my bullets, powder, and primers locally, by the 100 box. This gives me the cheapest price I can pay per load, and lets me shoot a lot more times for my money at the range.

Once you get your ML II. I'm sure you will love it, not only for the easy clean-up, but also for the exceptional accuracy.
I would suggest any of the Nikon drop compensating scopes available today ( No I don't work for Nikon) because with the load I am using, they seem to be dead on out to 250 yards, which is as far as I have had time to shoot.

Hope this all helps.

NoSecondBest · September 8, 2011, 10:10 AM

If you're shooting smokeless powders there is no need to clean between shots, ever. Henry Ball, the man who developed this rifle for Savage, was asked how often he cleaned his rifle. He replied "Once a year whether it needs it or not". Black powder and substitutes require cleaning very frequently to get and maintain accuracy.

mykeal · September 8, 2011, 05:06 PM

Quote:

If you're shooting smokeless powders there is no need to clean between shots, ever.

That will come as a great surprise to the bench rest shooters at my club.

NoSecondBest · September 8, 2011, 05:26 PM

Quote:

That will come as a great surprise to the bench rest shooters at my club.

I'd be amazed if the benchrest shooters at your club were shooting Savage Muzzleloaders in benchrest competition. Henry Ball and Randy Wakeman know more about these guns than anyone on the planet and the idea of not cleaning between shots is their reccommendation. I'm guessing you don't own or use one yourself.

racsw · September 8, 2011, 09:18 PM

You guys have been absolutely great!!
I can't thank you enough.
I've bookmarked the online stores you mentioned, and I want to see those Nikon scopes, they sound pretty nifty.

I went to a large ammunition store in town, and got the MMP sabots, IMR-4759 powder, Hornady 250 gr hollow points, an RCBS small electronic scale, an RCBS powder dribbler, 3 orange gadgets to hold one complete charge (bullet, sabot, powder), Federal 209A primers, and a short starter rod.

The idea about the glitter tubes is cool.

I shoot in dense woods, where you're lucky to see a 50 yd shot. Most will be in the 20 - 35 yd range. I have a nice Red Dot on my 45-70, but for now I purchased a Williams Firesight specifically made for this gun. Money is getting a little tight, so if the gun shoots as well as you claim, I may look at a small scope or another Red Dot for next year. For what this all cost for one week of whitetail deer hunting, I could have bought 100 lbs of top prime rib, and had it cooked and served. Just a joke, as we don't hunt for survival. (hopefully)

Once again, my thanks to all.

Robert

mykeal · September 9, 2011, 04:54 AM

NoSecondBest - I apologize. You're correct, I don't own one. I inferred that your comment was about smokeless powder shooting in general - bench rest shooters, who are famous for their pursuit of very accurate shooting, would never think of not cleaning every chance they get; a dirty bore is an anathema. I didn't realize that you were commenting about the Savage ML II specifically, as an anomaly, a fact which would also be a great surprise to those same bench rest shooters.

By the way, Wakeman has no credibility.

September 6, 2011, 10:35 AM	#1
racsw Junior Member Join Date: September 6, 2011 Posts: 6	Muzzleloading accessories Hi, I just bought a Savage 10ML-II muzzleloader. It has always had good reviews, so I wanted to take advantage of our 1 week muzzleloader season. It's been over 35 years that I've shot a muzzleloader, the last one being a nice Allen Arms 50 cal. Hawken that I had to finish. So now I am not sure what gadgets I need to load and prime it. It shoots smokeless powder, and I've gathered various opinions on what powders/primers/sabots/bullets offer good groups. I'm guessing a Lee dipper set, but I would like to keep it simple if possible. I used to have these things that held measured powder, like small cannisters, that you filled, so you didn't have to measure in the field, but now I don't know what new things are out there. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

September 6, 2011, 11:03 AM	#2
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	delete! Deleted __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

September 6, 2011, 11:06 AM	#3
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	A hunting we will go !!! Sounds like you want to take it hunting so I'll just list some "Practicals" and let others list the "Particulars" ..... 1) Field bag. 2) Quick Loaders with your "shot-string" QTY.-6 loads 3) Small field flask: QTY. 6 loads min. 4) Extra Sobots with projectile; 6-load min. 5) Short starter. 6) 209 primers & capper. 7) One worm jag and patch jag. 8) T-handle for ramrod. 9) Range time. Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

September 6, 2011, 12:02 PM	#6
highvel Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2010 Location: Powhatan VA Posts: 633	Bullet BEFORE the powder, ohh, now I get it! __________________ Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.--Mark Twain "I have opinions of my own 'strong opinions' but I don't always agree with them."--George Bush

September 6, 2011, 12:08 PM	#7
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	For the range, don't forget hearing protection and eye protection. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

September 6, 2011, 11:34 AM	#4
racsw Junior Member Join Date: September 6, 2011 Posts: 6	I thought that the sabots eliminated patches. Am I wrong? What's a worm jag and patch jag?

September 6, 2011, 11:53 AM	#5
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	Worm jag is to fish out a stuck bullet (i.e. you seated your bullet before you put the powder in). Patch jag is a knurled cyclinder that helps a cleaning patch get good contact with the rifling. The patches aren't used when shooting, they are used to clean between shots. I would say that for field carry (i.e. hunting) the 6 quick loaders were recommended will eliminate the need for any small flask, extra 209 primers, and extra bullets/sabots. I carry the load that is in my gun and only 3 extra quickloads. Also, with a modern inline, there is no need to carry a worm jag. As to a patch jag, I use the combo type that is a bullet seater/knurled patch jag all in one. If you use the right sabot (i.e. one that isn't too tight for your bore) you can also eliminate the short starter and the T-handle. Everything I need to carry in the field that is unique to a ML can be carried in a couple of jacket pockets. To the above list, I would ADD. Small roll of masking tape (cover the muzzle and breach with a piece of tape if it starts raining). Masking tape also helps hold the quickload together. A nipple pick (or just a piece of fine wire) for cleaning out the breech plug. Of course, my range box contains the full list of extras that one could possibly need.

September 6, 2011, 03:42 PM	#9
racsw Junior Member Join Date: September 6, 2011 Posts: 6	Thank you for your help, guys. I'm making a list to take to Gander Mtn. BTW, nobody mentioned how to measure the powder. I assume a set of Lee measuring cups will do? Most of the loads I've seen are around 41 to 45 grains of IMR 4759 or similar. I used to have an Ohaus scale, but I can't find it.

September 6, 2011, 04:46 PM	#10
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Get an adjustable powder measure. Powder is by volume, not weight.

September 6, 2011, 05:00 PM	#11
Lee McNelly Junior member Join Date: June 9, 2011 Posts: 325	deleted Last edited by Lee McNelly; September 6, 2011 at 05:18 PM.

September 6, 2011, 07:04 PM	#13
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	When all else fails, read the manual !! Not surprising how many times I refer people to their manuals. Most In-Liners and strict Traditionalist know squat about the Savage 10ML and what the manual says. Nor do we care, that is until we go there. .... racsw Back in your court to figure this detail out. ... There are times when real men, do read manuals and; Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

September 6, 2011, 07:07 PM	#14
racsw Junior Member Join Date: September 6, 2011 Posts: 6	Thanks again, guys. BTW, I won't have the gun for about 10 days to two weeks. When I get it, the Manual is the first to be read.

September 6, 2011, 07:35 PM	#15
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	How bout that and it makes sense; Hawg is right, when dealing with BP type replacement propellants ...... NoSecondBest is right when dealing with smokeless. The manual; https://s3.amazonaws.com/savagefiles...der_10mlii.pdf Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

September 7, 2011, 02:43 AM	#16
racsw Junior Member Join Date: September 6, 2011 Posts: 6	Where do you guys buy your loading supplies, like MMP black Sabots, Lee powder measures, Hornady 250/300 grain XTP, IMR powder, etc? I can only find black powder muzzleloading supply houses.

September 7, 2011, 04:22 AM	#17
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	He did say smokeless. Guess I missed that the first time around. No do not measure smokeless by volume.

September 7, 2011, 01:10 PM	#18
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	These outfits sell many of the items that you're looking for: http://www.grafs.com/ http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/ http://www.midwayusa.com/

September 7, 2011, 02:55 PM	#19
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	Everything I need comes from Grafs except powder and caps. Because I'm too cheap to pay that $25 hasmat fee, I wait and stock up on powder and caps whenever I see a local store carrying them.

September 8, 2011, 09:53 AM	#20
Wild Bill Bucks Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2005 Location: Southeastern Oklahoma, Next door to Sasquatch Posts: 1,266	Been shooting the ML II for about 3 years. I use 42 grains of Vit 110 behind a MMP sabot with a 250 grain Hornady .45 caliber Hollow point pistol bullet, set off by the CCI primer. This load will print clover leafs at 100 yards with no clean out between shots, for 3 shots. This eliminates a lot of headaches associated with between shot cleaning during a hunt. Let's face it, if you can't shoot a deer in 3 shots, you need to get out of the woods and go back to the range for a while. I bought one of the old stretch, bullet holder bands, that stretches over the stock of the rifle, and I use the bullet holders to hold my extra loads. This eliminates the need to carry a lot of stuff you have to dig through a bag or a pocket to re-load. I went to my local dime store, and bought some of the small glitter tubes my wife uses for her hobbies. They are exactly the right size to house a sabot and a bullet, and will hold 42 grains of powder as well. I put a primer in each tube, and that way I only have one tube to worry about to re-load my rifle. Re-loading can be done in less than 10 seconds, primer and all. When you get your rifle, you will notice that the rod that comes with it, has to have a handle put on it to use for clean out, so being able to shoot 3 shots without cleaning becomes really nice out in the woods. The rod that comes with it, does great for loading, so it is really all you need to take with you when hunting, and further eliminates a lot of extra crap to have to keep up with. I always carry a few patches in my pocket, but have never had to use them. The reason I bought the ML II was to get away from the crud build up that happens with traditional powders for muzzle loaders. Smokeless powder does not build up, so it keeps cleaning to a minimum. As others have said ALWAYS weigh your charge or use a cup made specially for smokeless powder. 4 or 5 grains of traditional powders won't make enough difference for you to notice in a load, but with smokeless, it will make a tremendous difference. I buy my sabots directly from MMP in a 50 pack, 10 packs at a time. I buy my bullets, powder, and primers locally, by the 100 box. This gives me the cheapest price I can pay per load, and lets me shoot a lot more times for my money at the range. Once you get your ML II. I'm sure you will love it, not only for the easy clean-up, but also for the exceptional accuracy. I would suggest any of the Nikon drop compensating scopes available today ( No I don't work for Nikon) because with the load I am using, they seem to be dead on out to 250 yards, which is as far as I have had time to shoot. Hope this all helps.

September 8, 2011, 10:10 AM	#21
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	If you're shooting smokeless powders there is no need to clean between shots, ever. Henry Ball, the man who developed this rifle for Savage, was asked how often he cleaned his rifle. He replied "Once a year whether it needs it or not". Black powder and substitutes require cleaning very frequently to get and maintain accuracy. Last edited by NoSecondBest; September 8, 2011 at 11:24 AM.

September 8, 2011, 09:18 PM	#24
racsw Junior Member Join Date: September 6, 2011 Posts: 6	You guys have been absolutely great!! I can't thank you enough. I've bookmarked the online stores you mentioned, and I want to see those Nikon scopes, they sound pretty nifty. I went to a large ammunition store in town, and got the MMP sabots, IMR-4759 powder, Hornady 250 gr hollow points, an RCBS small electronic scale, an RCBS powder dribbler, 3 orange gadgets to hold one complete charge (bullet, sabot, powder), Federal 209A primers, and a short starter rod. The idea about the glitter tubes is cool. I shoot in dense woods, where you're lucky to see a 50 yd shot. Most will be in the 20 - 35 yd range. I have a nice Red Dot on my 45-70, but for now I purchased a Williams Firesight specifically made for this gun. Money is getting a little tight, so if the gun shoots as well as you claim, I may look at a small scope or another Red Dot for next year. For what this all cost for one week of whitetail deer hunting, I could have bought 100 lbs of top prime rib, and had it cooked and served. Just a joke, as we don't hunt for survival. (hopefully) Once again, my thanks to all. Robert

September 9, 2011, 04:54 AM	#25
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	NoSecondBest - I apologize. You're correct, I don't own one. I inferred that your comment was about smokeless powder shooting in general - bench rest shooters, who are famous for their pursuit of very accurate shooting, would never think of not cleaning every chance they get; a dirty bore is an anathema. I didn't realize that you were commenting about the Savage ML II specifically, as an anomaly, a fact which would also be a great surprise to those same bench rest shooters. By the way, Wakeman has no credibility.