Shotgun pistol with rifled barrel

[johnwilliamson062]

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...62#post6414162

but the market for rifled-bore handguns designed for 12-28ga shotshells has not been widely exploited, presumably because they would not be able to fire another cartridge without being classified as a DD.

The pattern given by rifled bores at HD distances compared to smooth bores is more in line with mosts expectations for defensive shotgun uses.
There are so many sabot slug products that get accuracy similar to that reported from the .410 pistols shooting 45lc.

Recoil might be a bit much with a 12 or 20, but a 28 might not be so bad.

What do you think about a larger gauge shotgun pistol?

[KennyFSU]

I had to make my own.

[dogtown tom]

johnwilliamson062 https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...62#post6414162

....Recoil might be a bit much with a 12 or 20, but a 28 might not be so bad.
What do you think about a larger gauge shotgun pistol?

Above .50 will be classified as a Destructive Device. (28ga is .550")
Taurus found this out at SHOT Show a few years ago when they displayed a 28gauge revolver. It took about a day before someone pointed out the NFA status of such a firearm. Taurus removed it from the display.

Remember, the Taurus and Leinad (pictured above) are actually chambered in .45 Colt. It is a nice convenience that you can also fire .410 caliber shotshells through them. To avoid the National Firearms Act, such handguns must have a rifled barrel.

[DMK]

To avoid the National Firearms Act, such handguns must have a rifled barrel.

So what is the difference between a say a Taurus Judge with a rifled barrel and a Mossberg 590 Shockwave which has a smoothbore?

If the Mossberg can have a smoothbore yet fall between the cracks to be neither handgun nor shotgun and be just a non classified "firearm", then why can't a smoothbore Judge? Is it just about overall length?

[johnwilliamson062]

Originally posted by CarGuyChris in the thread I linked above:

(f) Destructive device
The term “destructive device” means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes...

So, it seems that rule may not apply to firearms designed to shoot shells exclusively.

THis article describing the fate of the Taurus 28 ga disagrees:
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/t...auge-revolver/
Seems BATFE did not give a formal decision.

[DPris]

Any rifled shotgun bore is going to open up patterning rapidly and reduce effective range.
How much can vary, and whether or not that'd be practical for self-defense would depend on what distance restriction you'd be willing to accept with a given load.
Denis

[44 AMP]

The pattern given by rifled bores at HD distances compared to smooth bores is more in line with mosts expectations for defensive shotgun uses.

If you spin a shot charge, you ARE going to the "donut hole" in the center of the pattern. How big it is, is going to depend mostly on the distance from the muzzle. How important that is, depends on your target, the distance, and how well you aim.

There are so many sabot slug products that get accuracy similar to that reported from the .410 pistols shooting 45lc.

Small point of order, here...
You cannot, should not, and MUST NOT fire .45 bullets through a
.410 pistol"!!!!!!

Despite the common usage putting the number "410" first these guns are NOT .410s they are .45s!!! They have .45 caliber bores!!! Call them .45Colt/.410 and you are correct, using the American standard of putting ACTUAL bore size first, and additional information second.

Most often seen in wildcats, such as the .357/44 or 6.5/.300 Weatherby, and in some factory standard rifle rounds, such as the .30-40 Krag, .30-06, and 7mm-08. Actual bore size first, powder charge, or parent case, or other info second. The British use the exact opposite system, naming the parent case first, and the actual bore size second, such as the .577/450. (.45 caliber based on the .577 case)

And, lets be clear about something else, in these .45/410 pistols, you are firing a .410 shell down a rifled .45 caliber bore. Using shot, or sabot slugs, or standard slugs, you do NOT have a large bearing surface in contact with the rifling. SO, the shot, or slug is NOT spun as effectively as would be the case in a rifled bore of the proper size for the shotshell. You do get some spin, enough to make the donut hole with shot, and give a slug some spin, but not as much in .45/.410 as you would in a rifled 12ga shooting 12ga shells.

My experience shooting .45 Colt in guns also chambered to fire the .410 is that they are NOT as accurate as firing .45 Colt in a .45 Colt only barrel. They may be accurate enough for you, if all you need is minute of man at 15feet. They may even do a bit better than that. Mine didn't, and I wound up getting a .45 Colt (only) barrel for my .45/410 Contender. And, yes, it shot .45 Colt more accurately than the combo barrel.

Recoil might be a bit much with a 12 or 20, but a 28 might not be so bad.

Everyone has a differing definition of "not so bad".

What do you think about a larger gauge shotgun pistol?

The main drawback to a shotgun pistol (aside from the legal issues) is simply SIZE, followed by capacity. Bigger shells, bigger gun, no getting around that, period. Bigger shells means less capacity in a manageable size package, as well.

Imagine the bulk of a 12ga revolver...and if you can get past that, you still have to contend with capacity. A lot of people feel two rounds (double barrel) or even 5 or 6 (revolver) simply isn't enough. Note how many 9mm advocates don't argue the .45 doesn't work, they argue how the 9mm works and holds more rounds...

You simply are not going to get more rounds in a shotgun pistol without going to something much, much larger than common handguns.

And, forget about semi auto shotgun pistols with detachable magazines. Not going to be legal in any place with an AWB law. (which requires the semi auto pistol have the mag in the grip or be an "assault weapon")

SO, if you want 4, 5, or more rounds, you are stuck with some cut down version of a pump or semi auto shotgun, and that is covered under fed law, if smoothbore, and much larger and less wieldly than regular handguns, if rifled.

Could serve well enough as a nightstand gun, an "in home" home defense gun, but would be a crappy choice for a carry gun.

Now, the smallest shotgun gauges (above .410) would have the same drawbacks as a 12ga, though in lesser degree. Also they would be less effective, as well. More effective (with suitable loads) than a .410, BUT, to what degree??

Would it be enough to make them a commercially viable product?? Perhaps, though it hasn't happened yet, and shows no signs of doing so, at this time.\

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062

THis article describing the fate of the Taurus 28 ga disagrees:
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/t...auge-revolver/
Seems BATFE did not give a formal decision.

A key point from the article is Taurus' decision may have been driven largely by concern about import laws—specifically, whether the ATF would find the Raging Judge to be "...generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes..." [18 USC § 925(d)], IMHO a legit concern given that it can ONLY fire shotgun shells.

This law gives the A.G. broader latitude to prohibit importing unusual firearms than to prohibit the manufacture of such firearms in the United States. Remember who was A.G. at the time...

Taurus potentially could have gotten around this problem by manufacturing the Raging Judge in the United States, but for whatever reason, they chose no to pursue this. I speculate that the reason was simply a perceived lack of market interest; IMHO the gun conceptually drifted a good deal further into novelty territory than the regular Judge, it weighed almost 4 lbs unloaded(!), and it promised to be uncomfortable to fire with full-power ammo while being not particularly effective as a SD or hunting tool (+1 44 AMP).

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062

Originally posted by CarGuyChris in the thread I linked above:

So, it seems that rule may not apply to firearms designed to shoot shells exclusively....

Look at that definition again (emphasis added):

(f) Destructive device
The term “destructive device” means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes...

So first, the exception applies only to a shotgun (or the shotshell alone). Now a shotgun is (26 USC 5845(d), emphasis added):

...a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore ...

So your handgun with a rifled bore is not a shotgun.

Furthermore, the exception applies only to a firearm, "...which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes...." I seriously doubt that your 28 gauge handgun is likely to be found "...particularly suitable for sporting purposes...."

[John D]

Most often seen in wildcats, such as the .357/44 or 6.5/.300 Weatherby, and in some factory standard rifle rounds, such as the .30-40 Krag, .30-06, and 7mm-08. Actual bore size first, powder charge, or parent case, or other info second. The British use the exact opposite system, naming the parent case first, and the actual bore size second, such as the .577/450. (.45 caliber based on the .577 case)
How do you explain the 38-40, which has a bore of .400?

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

...the exception applies only to a shotgun (or the shotshell alone).

Ugh, I was getting lost in the commas. I was reading the "shotgun shell" as being the "projectile" and not "any type of weapon."

After rereading this, I suppose that "any type of weapon" must be referring to the "shotgun shell" itself, despite its lack of a barrel.

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

...the exception applies only to a firearm, "...which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes...." I seriously doubt that your 28 gauge handgun is likely to be found "...particularly suitable for sporting purposes...."

No argument there...!

[44 AMP]

How do you explain the 38-40, which has a bore of .400?

I explain it as a marketing decision by the people who made the cartridge, Winchester. I can't begin to tell you what was in their minds in 1874, but stories have floated around for a long time that the assumed reasoning was to reduce confusion with another round they made. Supposedly they felt that .40-40 was too close to .44-40 and confusion would result.

Cartridge names are whatever the maker decides they want. GENERALLY similar practices are followed, and become the accepted norm, but there are exceptions, and if you look you'll find LOTS of exceptions, where the name bears only a vague relationship with the actual bore size. Lots of other rounds use the actual bore size as part of the name. And some use only part of the bore size (first two digits).

Yes, the .38-40 is a .40 cal bullet, unlike the rest of the ".38s" which are .36 cal (.358"), and our .44s which are ".43s" (.429").

If you want to really see name variation in the same bore size, just look at our .22 cal varmint rounds. .218 Bee, .219 Zipper, .22 Hornet, .221 Fireball, .222 Rem, .222 Rem Mag, .223 Rem, .224 Weatherby mag, .225 Winchester, .22-250, and .220 Swift all use .224" diameter bullets.

Sorry for the thread drift, but you did ask...

Back to shotgun pistols...
I've fired a few "sawed off" shotguns in 12ga, and with birdshot up through #4 buck recoil "isn't that bad" (bear in mind I have .44 magnums and a .45-70 Contender), to me, but someone else might have a much different opinion

Shooting 00 buck or slugs moves things to another level entirely (again, for me), way beyond comfort and into the painful range.

The question is, would the smaller shotgun rounds (below 20ga) be worthwhile? Meaning, would their performance with either shot or slug justify the bulk needed to shoot them in a handgun, compared to the usual "standard" pistols in common use?

[James K]

Why do I doubt that folks who want a 12" barrel 12 gauge are much concerned about the pattern?

Jim

[Creek Henry]

You can walk into Cabelas and buy a 9" barrel 20 ga howda. It will be blackpowder and cap/ball gun muzzleloader. Grab the box, walk up to the counter and pay for it and walk out with it.

[dogtown tom]

Creek Henry You can walk into Cabelas and buy a 9" barrel 20 ga howda. It will be blackpowder and cap/ball gun muzzleloader. Grab the box, walk up to the counter and pay for it and walk out with it.

That's nice.
I can also go buy beef jerky at Cabela's.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by Creek Henry

You can walk into Cabelas and buy a 9" barrel 20 ga howda. It will be blackpowder and cap/ball gun muzzleloader.

The NFA definition of DD specifically excludes antiques. Any firearm that (a) uses matchlock, flintlock, or percussion cap ignition and (b) cannot accept fixed cartridges is considered to be an antique. From 26 USC § 5845:

(f) Destructive device
[Sections previously discussed are omitted]
...The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.

(g) Antique firearm
The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

[*SLIGHTLY OFF-TOPIC FOOTNOTE: The NFA definition of "antique" does NOT broadly encompass all pre-1899 fixed-cartridge firearms like the 68 GCA definition does; hence, a cut-down pre-1899 fixed-cartridge shotgun is still classified as an SBS or AOW.]