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December 28, 2009, 07:05 PM | #101 |
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Troy,
All I carry is the weapon, or two, my flashlight, and that's that. I'm not a huge knife person but do know how to use my hands and feet well. I believe in keeping it simple.
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December 28, 2009, 08:19 PM | #102 | ||
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We carry what you would consider a lot of ammo because we don't want to run out in the unlikely event that we might need it. Quote:
So just how does packing extra ammo cause discomfort? Just another straw man argument. |
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December 28, 2009, 10:32 PM | #103 | |
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From a post I wrote on my blog: Quote:
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December 29, 2009, 01:01 AM | #104 | |
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These discussions always remind me of the difference between Obsessive Compulsive personality type, and Obsessive Compulsive disorder. What's the difference? One significantly interferes with your life.
We all want to be prepared. I think Marko Kloos said it best: Quote:
The question is, at what point does your level of preparedness for an unlikely event seriously interfere with your normal life? Some people can comfortably carry a full size semi auto, multiple reloads, a BUG, multiple reloads for the BUG, 2 or more flashlights (cause Murphy applies to them too), 2 or more cell phones on multiple independent networks (Murphy applies to cell towers too), 2 or more knives, 2 or more batons, 2 or more pepper sprays, 2 or more tazers, and of course 2 or more first aid kits. If they can do it, more power to them. But just because they can do that without interfering with their lives, does not mean everyone can. And that I think is the gist of this argument. No one can be perfectly prepared for all eventualities, so everything is merely an indicator of how unprepared we wish to be. I'll use two examples here; seat belts and home invasions. Seat belts are mechanical devices, prone to Murphy. How many people have multiple seat belts installed in their cars? Maybe just a 5 point harness over the stock one? Home invasions have been carried out by professionals who cut power and phone lines, employ cell jammers, and come in teams up to five wearing body armor. Do you always have a high capacity rifle (with multiple reloads, of course!), body armour, electronic hearing protection, night vision, means of contacting help that are independent of phone lines (or cell towers, or house power) etc within arms reach? Everyone evaluates the perceived risk and equips for it. I think all this fussing at people who do not perceive a need to be less unprepared than you are is counter productive. Imho the real gauge for how prepared someone is resides not in what they carry, but how much they train with it. That's jus' me tho... |
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December 29, 2009, 06:37 AM | #105 | |
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How many times have you listened or watched a news report about how much ammo a shooter had? Remember Ft Hood? What about Columbine? The media had a field day with the ammo brought by the shooter. The government tightened the noose on us a little more with each shooting and the public became more concerned about such. Check the 911 calls each day from any mid- large size city in the south. There will be several calls about an armed person in a store or on the street. Most of these calls are dismissed since the armed person is gone by the time of officer arrival. Others are ok since the armed person is totally legal. However, there are calls that are warranted and someone get arrested. I have been on the scene of many, many shootings. A good amount of them are justified. Yet it has gotten where there is more ammo in magazines at the scene than there are police officers. People are hitting the streets armed for war and the media plays on the fears of the public in telling what is found. Now compare that to a person carrying a revolver. They generally carry one gun, no extra ammo and feel comfortable and safe. I like revolvers and sometimes carry one. I generally carry a semi but I do not carry extra magazines. I have 38 yrs in LE. My uncle retired with 40 yrs. Two of my cousins has about 20 yrs each and with us shooting in training, competitions and such, not one of us have sustained mag failure. Given it may be possible, a spare mag would solve the problem. But 2-3 spare mags makes it appear to the public that you are about to declare war. If you can conceal them all the time, then carry away. Most cannot and get seen. Now lets get to the shooting in the event of need. Years ago when I first got out of law school, the avg shots fired by a good guy was two. Now it is nine. The inventory of what a peson carried after a shooting has gone to where the shooter has a half box of shells on them. This amount decreases as the caliber weapon is increased. I love guns and collect them as well as shoot them. I love the sport and I love the citizen being able to be armed as long as they are legal. However if the trend continues, and many Chiefs of Police have already began rumblings, about the complaints they are getting on armed citizens. How many complaints will an anti gunner politician have to get before a law is passed to limit our freedoms? We do this to ourselves. Just as if I see someone wearing bling, dressed in satin and driving a Corvette, I get a differerent perception of them than I would if they were in work clothes, driving a pickup. Of course, so do the women that see them. Keep on showing the guns, braqging about how much ammo and guns they have. Our actions will effect us all. More stores are now posting signs restricting gun carry. This state is gun friendly. We can carry open, get a CCW with minimum training, keep in vehicles without a CCW and many other things. Yet we can no longer walk into a residence carrying concealed without telling the residents and getting permission to enter the home. It only took a handful of complaints to get that into the state law. Look for WalMart to put signs up in the next few months forbiding weapon carry. But we are doing it to ourselves. Last edited by oldman1946; December 29, 2009 at 06:55 AM. |
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December 29, 2009, 07:39 AM | #106 | ||
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And what does "feeling" have to do with it? For heaven's sake, there are people riding motorcycles without helmets after a few beers who "feel" comfortable and safe. I "feel" the same amount of safety and comfort whether I'm carrying the gun(s) or not. Quote:
Mags break; it's a fact of life. They're wear items; they wear out. You throw them away and buy more (but please stomp them flat before you throw them away, because some 50-rd/month shooter is going to fish your broken mag out of the range trash can to save money, sure as god made little green apples...) Heck, I haven't broken a magazine since a rifle clinic in early November. BTW: You're pretty obsessed with spare ammo in restaurants. I've never noticed this phenomenon myself; are the mags more likely to jump out of my pocket there? |
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December 29, 2009, 08:28 AM | #107 | ||
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You do not notice this since you are not in law enforcement. You do not notice that LEO generally will sit in a spot where they can watch the door and the register. Most of the time, sitting with their backs to a wall so they can see what is going on and who is coming in. You and many others here, as I am, will be considered pro gun and as such, the sight of a truck load of ammo goes unnoticed. Yet from the law enforcement view, we look for who may be carrying. A fanny pack screams gun to us. Coats in warm weather is virtually a sign saying gun. Oversize pants and a few other things suggest a possible gun. We also watch the way people drive for signs of intoxication. Slow, wide turns, hugging one line or another, slower than traffic speed and such are also one of the 12 things we look for when a driver may be intoxicated. The same with hidden guns. Contrary to what you may think, the amount of illegal carry far surpasses legal carry. Breaking a law does not bother a criminal but law enforcement looks for the criminal actions of others for reasons of public safety. If you consider the view of the anti gunners, the elderly and those without a position on guns, seeing one with a gun on their side is somewhat upsetting. Seeing a belt lined with magazines becomes a source of concern as to why they need that much. There are those that write letters to the media and politicians about it. It may be some pro gunners would write also about how comforting it was to see an armed person in public but I have never heard of it happening so the anti crowd wins that round. Quote:
I was one of the advisory panel when the CCW law was being revised here 20 years ago and long before most here was too young to be shooting. Over the years I have seen an evolution in the public carry and that disturbs me. Walk a mile in my shoes and see what I do. The only way you will ever see me is if there is a fatality or multiple serious injury where an expert in the field is needed. I travel over 60,000 miles a year looking at such, both at the crime scene when possible and afterward when circumstances warrant. Much of my time is spent in courts on this type cases. No, I am not obsessed. I just see things from both sides and try to keep an unbiased opinion so my judgement does not become tainted. If I mentioned the other changes in CCW, shooting and firearm crime over the years, I would be banned from here. We are doing an injustice to our sport and our freedoms. While at it, you mentioned carrying speedloaders by your friends. A speed loader will be six rounds. I routinely see people with 36 or more rounds on them. Did you know that alone can predjuice a judge or jury since it is often construed to be looking for trouble. Just get into a situation where you have a shooting and you are weighed down with spare bullets. You are going to be questioned hard and often. If it gets turned over to a Grand Jury, your spare ammo will be used against you. In the event you are not familar with Grand Jury, only the prosecution side is presented. Your defense atty or yourself will not be present and your side will not be heard. Having a box of shells on you will not go in your favor. From there, things will get costly for you. |
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December 29, 2009, 08:41 AM | #108 | |
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December 29, 2009, 09:20 AM | #109 | ||||||||
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After Fort Hood there was a marked absence of gun control proposals. Further, don't you find it the least bit offensive to compare someone who carries a pistol for self-defense to those bent on mass murder at Fort Hood and Columbine? If this is a "possession equals intent" argument, aren't all males guilty of rape? Quote:
What does this have to do with carrying extra ammo? Quote:
Since the police carry extra ammo, are the police armed for war? The police are out to kill us? Should we treat the police as our enemy because they have extra ammo? Quote:
What if I carry extra ammo, three guns, two knives and a flashlight and I feel comfortable and safe? What about my feelings? Quote:
An Indiana State Trooper carries 52 rounds of ammo (plus his back up gun) visible for all to see. Is this trooper out to declare war on me? In your world is he a threat, or since he is an only one, this is permissible? I knew the police were a threat to me! Thanks for confirming my fears. Quote:
The police swear an oath to the state and federal Constitutions. Both of these documents recognize my right to carry a gun or guns and as much extra ammo as I damn well please. The police will obey the Constitution, or they will be serving crawdads and gumbo somewhere. If police chiefs received complaints about books, or churches, or computer forums, would we have to stop reading, worshipping or yakking on the Errornet? Of course not. The Bill of Rights protects the rights of the minority against the bleating and whining of the majority. Quote:
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Perhaps there is a state organization that you can work with?
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December 29, 2009, 09:46 AM | #110 | |||||||
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Many non-LEOs have far more training than LEOs. You are not the only ones. Quote:
I thought concealed was better in your world? Now if the pistols (and ammo) is concealed it is "hidden", implying some nefarious motivation. Quote:
Yes, I'll bet the sight of a Black man walking about after sunset upset Louisiana law enforcement too, but y'all got educated on that. We're here, wer're armed, you better get used to it. Quote:
Where have the antis had a victory on carrying recently? Where have laws been passed prohibiting open carrying outside of the jim Crow South? Quote:
The police are not the only ones with guns and openly carried extra ammo now. Those uppity citizens carry them now. Quote:
Should the police be the only ones to carry extra ammo? Quote:
I would like some cases of where the "extra ammo" theory has been used against an officer. Heck with so many cops carrying extra ammo right out in the open, I'll settle for just six (6) cases of police being prosecuted for carrying extra ammo. I'll wait here and load mags while you get me those cases.
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December 29, 2009, 10:09 AM | #111 | |
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No, that's not just you. Whether CCW toter or cop, there's an appalling idea that "Possession = Preparedness". Carrying a reload is pointless if you don't practice reloading. Carrying a BUG is pointless if you don't practice shooting it. How many people carry a BUG accessible to the weak hand and never shoot it weak-hand only? |
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December 29, 2009, 11:11 AM | #112 |
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Tam, I don't shoot my BUG enough weak-handed. I have only done so enough to determine that I have NO BUSINESS shooting my most common BUG weak-handed-only, except at contact distances. I am so strong-hand dominant, and my DAO BUG is so tiny in my giant mitts, that I'm not guarenteeing any proficiency under speed and stress out of the weak side only. (with that gun)
I'm not proud of that. I will say that I practice (not enough) with my weak hand only with my primary guns, and another off-duty concealable pocket revolver.
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December 29, 2009, 11:29 AM | #113 |
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Things must really be different in Louisiana, than from N. Texas.
oldman1946 said: "Contrary to what you may think, the amount of illegal carry far surpasses legal carry."
Huh. I've been carrying a badge and arresting bad guys since 2000, and I have met a LOT of people carrying guns in the field. The vast majority of them were doing so legally. I can think of only two honest-to-Gawd criminals that I found with guns illegally secreted on their persons. Now, I've arrested quite a few people that had guns with them or in their cars, but that wasn't illegal carry; it was just something to be dealt with like their car that had to be impounded following their arrest. Ho hum. What I run into far more often is people who have totin' permits, who don't carry guns with them. I always ask them why they're not armed, since they went to the trouble of getting a carry permit. Oh, I recall on some traffic stops that I've been on, where I've run into the occasional little old lady who, back before the state claimed "Traveling" included any time you were driving your car legally, carried a small gun in her purse, whom I advised to keep it out of sight. I suppose I saw an illegal carry there. But it wouldn't be illegal now. Look, it's true that we cops look for some things that non-cops often don't look for. The drunk driving thing is a good example. People see the driver who's "All Over The Road" (tm), but probably most people don't see the more subtle indicators. (I say "probably," because it's certainly possible that they do see them, but simply aren't calling them in until they see the more gross indicators.) But that doesn't mean that we're any better at spotting armed persons than an unsworn citizen is. I certainly received no training in it in academy beyond a short lecture. Most of my training in it came from having a father who carried plainclothes every day, and expected me to tell him if I could see that he printed. The reason to carry a spare magazine, for an auto loader, is to be able to immediately fix the #1 most likely source of failure in your pistol. oldman1946"Neither of us has sustained mag failure but maybe we invest in better equipment or take better care of our gear." If you have NEVER experienced a magazine failure, than I submit that you either have drastically over-estimated your round count and trigger time, OR you have not been correctly diagnosing failures on the range (surely you're not going to tell me that you've never had a stoppage?), OR you are the single most lucky shooter in the history of Ever. The question is, will that luck hold, or have you run out?
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December 29, 2009, 12:01 PM | #114 |
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At around age 64 with forty years of experience in messing with handguns I don't guess I had thought all that much about carrying a spare mag for my LW Commander. Lifestyle and location thing, maybe. IPSC matches in 1981-1983, sure. But not being all that set in my ways, I figured that having a little extra help for a social occasion made sense.
That was a tad over eleven years ago. I'm not really convinced that I'll quit considering different ideas. I'd sure hate to be all ossified in my thinking... |
December 29, 2009, 02:25 PM | #115 | |
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Your side comes out in trial. That is where you raise your defense. BTW: You claim that you fire 5,000-8,000 rounds a month, and you have been a LEO for 38 years and have never experienced a magazine failure, and neither have your uncle or cousins. A total of 118 years of shooting between you at 5,000 rounds a month. Doing the math (5,000*12*118)= about 7 to 11 million rounds fired without a single mag failure? That is pure BS.
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Caveat Emperor Last edited by divemedic; December 29, 2009 at 02:37 PM. |
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December 29, 2009, 02:44 PM | #116 | |
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A few questions: 1. How do you define the term: "mag failure"? 2. How many of those rounds are shot from semi-autos? 3. What kind of magazines do you use? 4. What kind of preventive maintenance do you do?
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December 29, 2009, 03:28 PM | #117 | |
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I just want to know where he buys his mags.
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Look, I know some people who approach the 5k-8k/month mark. They are either factory-sponsored high-level IPSC/IDPA shooters who are shooting OPA, or full-time high-end trainers. Maybe members of some extremely high-speed/low-drag outfits hit that pace in a pre-deployment workup. If you're working a 40-hr/wk. job, OTOH, that's 31-50 rounds every single hour you're not sleeping or at work. You sure you want to stick with that claim? |
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December 29, 2009, 03:35 PM | #118 | |
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December 29, 2009, 04:19 PM | #119 | |
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http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...2&d=1262057908 you will see that the magazine that failed is a top of the line Metalform magazine. All magazines, Les Baer, Metalform, Wilson, inter alia, will fail, it is only a matter of time. Sometimes magazines fail without a single round being fired. Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch often tells of such an happening when he was serving with the Allen County (Indiana) Sheriff's Department. ACSD carried 1911s at the time. Deputy Smith was dispatched to a call, arrived at the address and then exited his scout car. Upon exiting, his magazine's lip caught the car door and dropped his rounds at his feet. Smith simply reloaded and continued on with the call. If he had carried no spare magazine, he would have had a single shot weapon.
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December 29, 2009, 05:09 PM | #120 | ||||
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Where to start, where to start.
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I have so many other questions and remarks to what you have said, but will save those for later. Sir, you are welcome to your opinion, and I will fight for your right to speak that opinion. But you do not make any sense, and come across as a braggart that has no idea what he is talking about. I and others on here have LE experience, myself both Military and civilian with a badge. And I do not see where you are coming from. Please, explain.
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December 29, 2009, 07:32 PM | #121 | |
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That’s like telling Rosa Parks, “You can sit anywhere on the bus unless it makes some people uncomfortable. Then you have to move to the back. If enough people complain, you’ll have to get off the bus”. It’s our right to go armed however we like, within the law. If it makes some people uncomfortable, tough. Bigots had to get used to black people sitting wherever they wanted. Nervous liberals will have to get used to having armed citizens going about their lawful business. Expecting us to tone down the practice of out rights is expecting too much. It’s pandering to the fears of the ignorant. |
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December 29, 2009, 08:35 PM | #122 | |
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I'd also love to see some links/bibliography on those. I simply don't understand why anyone would downplay/poo poo the carry of useful tools. Flashlights and spare mags are friggin' gimmies... http://www.edcforums.com/ Go forth, and be educated. (even if you're "64 yrs of age and set in my ways") |
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December 29, 2009, 09:59 PM | #123 |
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Also, getting back more to the OP, I can't imagine leaving the house without my SOG multi tool, either.
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December 30, 2009, 07:44 AM | #124 | ||
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