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Old September 24, 2023, 03:51 PM   #1
Prof Young
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Pieces of a gun . . . ?

I know this is kinda rhetorical and I suspect there is no one definitive answer but . . . is a gun in pieces still a gun?

Here in Illinois, King Pritzger (more like a jester) managed to get a bunch of gun laws pushed through state legislation. And because he literally owns the state supreme court there will have to be federal action to knock it all down. That's gonna take a while.

In the mean time, as of Oct. 1 us serfs are supposed to register certain guns and magazines. The deadline is Dec. 3. LEO all over the state are vowing to have no part of this. The jester may appoint special law enforcement to make it happen.

But us serfs, with our rifle hanging in our shed, still have to decide what to do. I'm wondering, if push comes to shove, if a bunch of pieces of an AR-15 stashed all over my house still constitutes an AR-15, I mean by legal definition.

If it gets really bad I'll take my banned weapons to my brother in Idaho. I'd move there myself if I could get the rest of the family to come with me.

Life is good ... a touch crazy but . . .

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Old September 24, 2023, 05:47 PM   #2
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By federal law, the receiver constitutes a firearm. Other parts are not considered to be firearms unless they qualify as firearms under the NFA.

The NFA defines some items to be firearms that would normally be considered to be parts. Things like silencers, certain machinegun parts, etc.

Per federal law, then, if you disassemble your AR-15, the receiver is still considered to be a firearm even with no pieces attached to it.

But you're talking about trying to deal with a state law. You'll have to see what constitutes a firearm under your state's law. I would expect it to be somewhat similar to the federal definition, but you should check.
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Old September 24, 2023, 10:39 PM   #3
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Friend's friend lives on a boat. There was huge storm and the boat capsized. He couldn't find his guns after they righted his boat. What a pity.

So I was told.

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Old September 24, 2023, 10:48 PM   #4
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Quote:
If it gets really bad I'll take my banned weapons to my brother in Idaho.
I missed this the first time around.

If you are going to transfer possession across state lines (giving guns from a resident of one state to a resident of a different state), you will need to get an FFL involved to do it legally.
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Old September 24, 2023, 11:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
I missed this the first time around.

If you are going to transfer possession across state lines (giving guns from a resident of one state to a resident of a different state), you will need to get an FFL involved to do it legally.
Unless the Professor buys an inexpensive, locking gun storage cabinet in Idaho, puts the gun(s) in the cabinet himself, and doesn't give his brother a key to the storage cabinet. He did say "take" the guns to Idaho, not "send" the gun to Idaho.
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Old September 24, 2023, 11:19 PM   #6
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If they're locked up so the brother can not get to them, that would not be a transfer of possession since the brother would not be able to actually take possession.
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Old September 25, 2023, 12:47 AM   #7
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I suspect there is no one definitive answer but . . . is a gun in pieces still a gun?
Generally speaking, ONE of the pieces is still legally a gun. The serial numbered part. Commonly this is the frame or receiver, but there are a few exceptions.
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Old September 25, 2023, 10:32 AM   #8
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Thanks to one and all . . .

Yeah, I need to check with state law and the legal definition of a fire arm in IL.

Are we having fun yet?

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Old September 25, 2023, 06:02 PM   #9
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By federal law, the receiver constitutes a firearm
My understanding is the the part with the serial number constitutes the firearm. Newer pistols are using some form of "fire control system" allowing modularity which can be switched from frame to frame
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Old September 25, 2023, 09:48 PM   #10
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Since 1968 Federal law requires a serial number on a gun before it can enter commerce (be sold or otherwise transfer ownership /possession). Generally speaking this is the receiver or frame but there are exceptions. Again generally speaking the serial number is put on the major part that you cannot assemble a functional firearm without, but what ever part it goes on, THAT part (alone) is considered to be the firearm for all legal purposes.

Guns made before 1968 are not required to have serial numbers under Federal law. Most do, and, if there is a serial number you may not remove it, but there are many guns, mostly budget grade shotguns and .22 rifles that do not and never did have serial numbers.
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Old September 25, 2023, 10:33 PM   #11
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Getting back to the original question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof Young
But us serfs, with our rifle hanging in our shed, still have to decide what to do. I'm wondering, if push comes to shove, if a bunch of pieces of an AR-15 stashed all over my house still constitutes an AR-15, I mean by legal definition.
A: The pieces (plural) do not. The piece (singular) with the serial number (the lower received on an AR-15) does.
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Old September 25, 2023, 11:07 PM   #12
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I suppose the new laws are concerning certain kind of semi auto rifles. An AR lower receiver is serialized and is considered a firearm. But it alone doesn't necessarily make a semi auto rifle. As long as it is separated from a functioning semi auto upper receiver, it shouldn't be an assault weapon per definition. But as soon as you reassemble the rifle, you break the law. Just my understanding, and I am not licensed to practice law in your state.

There are a few legal cases in process that may over turn all these tyrannical state laws. Duncan V Bonta will deem magazine capacity restrictions unconstitutional, and it was ruled as such just last week. Miller V Bonta will do the same on assault rifles. But it is still pending. Keep the hope high and our prayers earnest.

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Old September 26, 2023, 12:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tangolima
I suppose the new laws are concerning certain kind of semi auto rifles. An AR lower receiver is serialized and is considered a firearm. But it alone doesn't necessarily make a semi auto rifle. As long as it is separated from a functioning semi auto upper receiver, it shouldn't be an assault weapon per definition. But as soon as you reassemble the rifle, you break the law. Just my understanding, and I am not licensed to practice law in your state.
Your mistake is applying logic, where logic is not applicable. To the anti-gunners in the nanny states, an AR lower, all by itself, IS an assault weapon. In some states, you can't even buy a stripped lower today.
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Old September 26, 2023, 12:33 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
Your mistake is applying logic, where logic is not applicable. To the anti-gunners in the nanny states, an AR lower, all by itself, IS an assault weapon. In some states, you can't even buy a stripped lower today.
So it doesn't work, or just speculation? There must be gun groups / fora in Illinois. We have calguns in California. They must have some guidance.

Nanny as California, we can buy lower receivers no problem. Non-semi auto, straight pull, bolt action, upper on AR lower is totally kosher.

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Old September 26, 2023, 08:28 PM   #15
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Quote:
To the anti-gunners in the nanny states, an AR lower, all by itself, IS an assault weapon. In some states, you can't even buy a stripped lower today.

The various states that restrict and ban these items are NOT uniform in what it covered nor how it is defined.

Sometimes the state laws are worded in such a way that they don't actually cover what everyone assumes they cover.

A key point is how terms are defined, as well as how those definitions are applied. And, the application currently in force might not be legal under the law, as written.

using the example of a stripped AR receiver (and not a partially finished one), legally it is a firearm. ALL BY ITSELF with no other parts attached.

BUT, depending on the wording of the state law, it may not fit the state's definition of an assault weapon.

Some of the state laws define assault weapons by the features a gun possesses. A stripped lower doesn't have a pistol grip, folding stock, flash suppressor, or any other parts.

SO, here's the question, if it doesn't have what the law defines to make it banned or restricted, is it? Should it be?? CAN it legally be??

The gun ban folks will say sure, it HAS to be, because of what you could make it into.

But, does THE LAW say that? Is intent covered in your state law's definitions? or is it just physical features the item has???

I think the CA example mentioned is a perfect example of what is possible.
You could build a manually operated (straight pull) bolt action on an AR lower receiver, and NONE of the state laws restricting semi autos can be applied.

Prohibiting the AR lower because "the only thing you can do with it is make an assault weapon" is a LIE.

Some places ban AR lowers by name. If that's the case, you're pretty much stuck. But if they ban it because it has the features on the "ban list" when it does not, in fact have those features, I think I Judge needs to rule on that. Right now (and hopefully for the future) courts have been instructed to consider historical precedent and the idea of govt overreach as valid reason to dismiss cases and even invalidate laws.

There are laws that include the intent as the crime, or part of the crime. For example, build a silencer without govt approval, and even if it doesn't actually reduce the sound, your intent was criminal and you can be convicted for that, because that law includes criminal intent.

Check carefully what your state's ban/restrict laws actually say, it might not be fully in line with what everyone assumes they say.
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Old September 26, 2023, 08:42 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
The various states that restrict and ban these items are NOT uniform in what it covered nor how it is defined.
Correct.

Which is why the OP needs to read the Illinois definition, and the Illinois laws that pertain thereto. I can't help. I have enough difficulty trying to keep up with the anti-gun laws my state passes each year.
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Old October 2, 2023, 08:02 AM   #17
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From 720 ILCS 5/24-1.9:
Quote:
(a) Definitions. In this Section:
(1) "Assault weapon" means any of the following, except as provided in subdivision (2) of this subsection:
(A) A semiautomatic rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine or that may be readily modified to accept a detachable magazine, if the firearm has one or more of the following:
(i) a pistol grip or thumbhole stock;
(ii) any feature capable of functioning as a protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand;
(iii) a folding, telescoping, thumbhole, or detachable stock, or a stock that is otherwise foldable or adjustable in a manner that operates to reduce the length, size, or any other dimension, or otherwise enhances the concealability of, the weapon;
(iv) a flash suppressor;
(v) a grenade launcher;
(vi) a shroud attached to the barrel or that partially or completely encircles the barrel, allowing the bearer to hold the firearm with the non trigger hand without being burned, but excluding a slide that encloses the barrel.
(B) A semiautomatic rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, except for an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.
(C) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine or that may be readily modified to accept a detachable magazine, if the firearm has one or more of the following:
(i) a threaded barrel;
(ii) a second pistol grip or another feature capable of functioning as a protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand;
(iii) a shroud attached to the barrel or that partially or completely encircles the barrel, allowing the bearer to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned, but excluding a slide that encloses the barrel;
(iv) a flash suppressor;
(v) the capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip; or
(vi) a buffer tube, arm brace, or other part that protrudes horizontally behind the pistol grip and is designed or redesigned to allow or facilitate a firearm to be fired from the shoulder.
(D) A semiautomatic pistol that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 15 rounds.
(E) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
(F) A semiautomatic shotgun that has one or more of the following:
(i) a pistol grip or thumbhole stock;
(ii) any feature capable of functioning as a protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand;
(iii) a folding or thumbhole stock;
(iv) a grenade launcher;
(v) a fixed magazine with the capacity of more than 5 rounds; or
(vi) the capacity to accept a detachable magazine.
(G) Any semiautomatic firearm that has the capacity to accept a belt ammunition feeding device.
(H) Any firearm that has been modified to be operable as an assault weapon as defined in this Section.
(I) Any part or combination of parts designed or intended to convert a firearm into an assault weapon, including any combination of parts from which an assault weapon may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
(J) All of the following rifles, copies, duplicates, variants, or altered facsimiles with the capability of any such weapon:
(i) All AK types, including the following:
(I) AK, AK47, AK47S, AK-74, AKM, AKS, ARM, MAK90, MISR, NHM90, NHM91, SA85, SA93, Vector Arms AK-47, VEPR, WASR-10, and WUM.
(II) IZHMASH Saiga AK.
(III) MAADI AK47 and ARM.
(IV) Norinco 56S, 56S2, 84S, and 86S.
(V) Poly Technologies AK47 and AKS.
(VI) SKS with a detachable magazine.
(ii) all AR types, including the following:
(I) AR-10.
(II) AR-15.
(III) Alexander Arms Overmatch Plus 16.
(IV) Armalite M15 22LR Carbine.
(V) Armalite M15-T.
(VI) Barrett REC7.
(VII) Beretta AR-70.
(VIII) Black Rain Ordnance Recon Scout.
(IX) Bushmaster ACR.
(X) Bushmaster Carbon 15.
(XI) Bushmaster MOE series.
(XII) Bushmaster XM15.
(XIII) Chiappa Firearms MFour rifles.
(XIV) Colt Match Target rifles.
(XV) CORE Rifle Systems CORE15 rifles.
(XVI) Daniel Defense M4A1 rifles.
(XVII) Devil Dog Arms 15 Series rifles.
(XVIII) Diamondback DB15 rifles.
(XIX) DoubleStar AR rifles.
(XX) DPMS Tactical rifles.
(XXI) DSA Inc. ZM-4 Carbine.
(XXII) Heckler & Koch MR556.
(XXIII) High Standard HSA-15 rifles.
(XXIV) Jesse James Nomad AR-15 rifle.
(XXV) Knight's Armament SR-15.
(XXVI) Lancer L15 rifles.
(XXVII) MGI Hydra Series rifles.
(XXVIII) Mossberg MMR Tactical rifles.
(XXIX) Noreen Firearms BN 36 rifle.
(XXX) Olympic Arms.
(XXXI) POF USA P415.
(XXXII) Precision Firearms AR rifles.
(XXXIII) Remington R-15 rifles.
(XXXIV) Rhino Arms AR rifles.
(XXXV) Rock River Arms LAR-15 or Rock River Arms LAR-47.
(XXXVI) Sig Sauer SIG516 rifles and MCX rifles.
(XXXVII) Smith & Wesson M&P15 rifles.
(XXXVIII) Stag Arms AR rifles.
(XXXIX) Sturm, Ruger & Co. SR556 and AR-556 rifles.
(XL) Uselton Arms Air-Lite M-4 rifles.
(XLI) Windham Weaponry AR rifles.
(XLII) WMD Guns Big Beast.
(XLIII) Yankee Hill Machine Company, Inc.YHM-15 rifles.
(iii) Barrett M107A1.
(iv) Barrett M82A1.
(v) Beretta CX4 Storm.
(vi) Calico Liberty Series.
(vii) CETME Sporter.
(viii) Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1, Max 2, AR 100, and AR 110C.
(ix) Fabrique Nationale/FN Herstal FAL, LAR, 22 FNC, 308 Match, L1A1 Sporter, PS90, SCAR, and FS2000.
(x) Feather Industries AT-9.
(xi) Galil Model AR and Model ARM.
(xii) Hi-Point Carbine.
(xiii) HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, HK-PSG-1, and HK USC.
(xiv) IWI TAVOR, Galil ACE rifle.
(xv) Kel-Tec Sub-2000, SU-16, and RFB.
(xvi) SIG AMT, SIG PE-57, Sig Sauer SG 550, Sig Sauer SG 551, and SIG MCX.
(xvii) Springfield Armory SAR-48.
(xviii) Steyr AUG.
(xix) Sturm, Ruger & Co. Mini-14 Tactical Rifle M-14/20CF.
(xx) All Thompson rifles, including the following:
(I) Thompson M1SB.
(II) Thompson T1100D.
(III) Thompson T150D.
(IV) Thompson T1B.
(V) Thompson T1B100D.
(VI) Thompson T1B50D.
(VII) Thompson T1BSB.
(VIII) Thompson T1-C.
(IX) Thompson T1D.
(X) Thompson T1SB.
(XI) Thompson T5.
(XII) Thompson T5100D.
(XIII) Thompson TM1.
(XIV) Thompson TM1C.
(xxi) UMAREX UZI rifle.
(xxii) UZI Mini Carbine, UZI Model A Carbine, and UZI Model B Carbine.
(xxiii) Valmet M62S, M71S, and M78.
(xxiv) Vector Arms UZI Type.
(xxv) Weaver Arms Nighthawk.
(xxvi) Wilkinson Arms Linda Carbine.
(K) All of the following pistols, copies, duplicates, variants, or altered facsimiles with the capability of any such weapon thereof:
(i) All AK types, including the following:
(I) Centurion 39 AK pistol.
(II) CZ Scorpion pistol.
(III) Draco AK-47 pistol.
(IV) HCR AK-47 pistol.
(V) IO Inc. Hellpup AK-47 pistol.
(VI) Krinkov pistol.
(VII) Mini Draco AK-47 pistol.
(VIII) PAP M92 pistol.
(IX) Yugo Krebs Krink pistol.
(ii) All AR types, including the following:
(I) American Spirit AR-15 pistol.
(II) Bushmaster Carbon 15 pistol.
(III) Chiappa Firearms M4 Pistol GEN II.
(IV) CORE Rifle Systems CORE15 Roscoe pistol.
(V) Daniel Defense MK18 pistol.
(VI) DoubleStar Corporation AR pistol.
(VII) DPMS AR-15 pistol.
(VIII) Jesse James Nomad AR-15 pistol.
(IX) Olympic Arms AR-15 pistol.
(X) Osprey Armament MK-18 pistol.
(XI) POF USA AR pistols.
(XII) Rock River Arms LAR 15 pistol.
(XIII) Uselton Arms Air-Lite M-4 pistol.
(iii) Calico pistols.
(iv) DSA SA58 PKP FAL pistol.
(v) Encom MP-9 and MP-45.
(vi) Heckler & Koch model SP-89 pistol.
(vii) Intratec AB-10, TEC-22 Scorpion, TEC-9, and TEC-DC9.
(viii) IWI Galil Ace pistol, UZI PRO pistol.
(ix) Kel-Tec PLR 16 pistol.
(x) All MAC types, including the following:
(I) MAC-10.
(II) MAC-11.
(III) Masterpiece Arms MPA A930 Mini Pistol, MPA460 Pistol, MPA Tactical Pistol, and MPA Mini Tactical Pistol.
(IV) Military Armament Corp. Ingram M-11.
(V) Velocity Arms VMAC.
(xi) Sig Sauer P556 pistol.
(xii) Sites Spectre.
(xiii) All Thompson types, including the following:
(I) Thompson TA510D.
(II) Thompson TA5.
(xiv) All UZI types, including Micro-UZI.
(L) All of the following shotguns, copies, duplicates, variants, or altered facsimiles with the capability of any such weapon thereof:
(i) DERYA Anakon MC-1980, Anakon SD12.
(ii) Doruk Lethal shotguns.
(iii) Franchi LAW-12 and SPAS 12.
(iv) All IZHMASH Saiga 12 types, including the following:
(I) IZHMASH Saiga 12.
(II) IZHMASH Saiga 12S.
(III) IZHMASH Saiga 12S EXP-01.
(IV) IZHMASH Saiga 12K.
(V) IZHMASH Saiga 12K-030.
(VI) IZHMASH Saiga 12K-040 Taktika.
(v) Streetsweeper.
(vi) Striker 12.
(2) "Assault weapon" does not include:
(A) Any firearm that is an unserviceable firearm or has been made permanently inoperable.
(B) An antique firearm or a replica of an antique firearm.
(C) A firearm that is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever or slide action, unless the firearm is a shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
(D) Any air rifle as defined in Section 24.8-0.1 of this Code.
(E) Any handgun, as defined under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act, unless otherwise listed in this Section.
Source: https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilc...tachment%2C%20.
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Old October 2, 2023, 10:20 AM   #18
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Looks like they ban by name all variants of AR-15. So a lower alone is assault weapon.

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Old October 2, 2023, 11:15 AM   #19
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the list would be much shorter if they simply listed what wasn't an "assault weapon" in their eyes...

The AR is named, and all "variants" are covered. SO, even a stripped AR lower would be covered under that law's list, I think.

DO note that they also include the Streetsweeper and Striker 12 shotguns. Those are NOT semi autos, they are manually operated, and do NOT have detachable magazines.

They got on the original 94 AWB list, basically because they are scary looking .

The "drum magazine" is a non detachable cylinder and the operating mechanism is a scaled up copy of a DA revolver. They justify it being on the list with a separate sentence stating "a shotgun with a revolving cylinder" is an assault weapon.

Our tax dollars at work, once again....
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Old October 2, 2023, 05:20 PM   #20
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But how do they define AR-15? What if it is renamed to 51RA?

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Old October 2, 2023, 06:15 PM   #21
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Quote:
What if it is renamed to 51RA?
they do it this way...
Quote:
(ii) all AR types, including the following:
the following lists XXXV (35) different "AR" rifles by names and makers. Don't think a simple name change will keep any AR "variant" off their list. It won't.
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Old October 2, 2023, 06:22 PM   #22
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Quote:
the list would be much shorter if they simply listed what wasn't an "assault weapon" in their eyes..
Easy peasey-

:list:
Daisy Red Ryder carbine
:/list:
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Old October 2, 2023, 11:37 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
they do it this way...





the following lists XXXV (35) different "AR" rifles by names and makers. Don't think a simple name change will keep any AR "variant" off their list. It won't.
I don't know. If the "blanket name" AR works, they wouldn't have had the list.

The government accuses my rifle an AR. They will have to prove it. What makes an rifle an AR variant? The name? It looks like one? There are plenty of ARs that are not on the list.

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Old October 3, 2023, 04:34 AM   #24
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Quote:
The government accuses my rifle an AR. They will have to prove it
Which they can easily do, simply by having a court recognized expert testify it is an AR variant. Then your defense would have to produce a recognized expert to testify it wasn't. And, somehow discredit the testimony of the govt provided expert. That's not an easy thing to do, and may not even be possible.

Simply put, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks, flies, swims like a duck, eats duck food and breeds with ducks, its most likely to be ruled a duck, even if it doesn't say the word "duck" anywhere on it.
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Old October 3, 2023, 03:32 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
Easy peasey-

:list:
Daisy Red Ryder carbine
:/list:
I don't know ... You could put an eye out with that Red Ryder ... That's Assault !
Gary
gwpercle is offline  
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