The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Bolt, Lever, and Pump Action

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 11, 2023, 12:31 PM   #1
ligonierbill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2007
Posts: 2,414
Dusted off 257 Roberts - surprising result

I was out to verify StaBall 6.5 in my Mauser: The weasels discontinued my go to IMR-4955. StaBall does well with Hornady 117s, and I wanted to run some with Sierra 117 ProHunters. It did fine, but the real story is, as an afterthought, I loaded some Barnes 100 TTSX. Got these to run in my 257 Weatherby, and while they do pretty good, they don't do as well as 120 Nosler Partitions. That's all I'll be shooting in that rifle, so why not try the Barnes in the smaller case. Barnes has data for Ramshot Hunter, of which I have an 8 lb jug, so I put some together. Barnes' max is 46.5, but I got their velocity with 45.0. Pretty good group. At 45.5, 1 1/4" (though I'm not really knuckling down) and 3,158. No overt pressure signs, so let's try 46.0: 3,190, still no pressure signs, but the group opened up to 2". Didn't fire Barnes's max. Checked QL when I got home, and that usually conservative software says I'm still under spec MAP. I think I'm going with the Barnes (also have 101 LRX).

PS: While I was letting the barrel cool, I banged away with my K-31. Using up some old (pre-Re-17) handloads. What a cool, fun rifle!
ligonierbill is offline  
Old July 11, 2023, 03:04 PM   #2
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 11,538
"Back in the day" many of weatherby's best hunting cartridges were based on the partition. I found the 270 and 300 weatherby cartridges loaded with partitions "defied BC logic" and were amazingly accurate within typical hunting distances.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old July 12, 2023, 08:14 AM   #3
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,256
My 257 Roberts is an AI . That should not make any difference for bullet selection.
This has been my go-to hunting rifle for most purposes for a long time. 20 + years? or so. I started out with 100 gr Sierra Boat Tails and IMR 4350. That was actually not bad.
But I'm in Western wide open spaces that usually have a breeze.

When Nosler introduced the 115 gr Ballistic Tip I was on it! That bullet has worked very well for me. I'm just not even tempted to try anything else. I load one load for that rifle. Its a stable gun that seldom requires any sight adjustment. So its always ready to go and it always shoots the same.

My powder of choice is H-4831 SC. It works,too.

I'm not telling you what you should do. That works for me.
HiBC is offline  
Old July 12, 2023, 09:00 AM   #4
ligonierbill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2007
Posts: 2,414
I thought I was there with my Sierra 117s, and tried the Barnes almost on a whim. My goal is to get where you are: one rifle, one load. If it's too big or too far away, use a different rifle. Always liked the Roberts, but I'm gaining even more respect for it. And I keep coming back to those copper bullets. I've rarely been disappointed.
ligonierbill is offline  
Old July 12, 2023, 11:16 AM   #5
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 8,173
I think the old Roberts cartridge is cool. I have a buddy who has used one for several years built on a small ring 96 action without thumb cut. It looks a lot like a M50 FWT with it's Schnabel forend he carved into the stock. His favorite bullet has been the 117 Sierras in that rifle.

Me I'm not shooting much .257 calibers since I sold off my .25-06. I do have a CD mini in .250-3000, I bought it for my daughter many years ago for her to have a low recoiling rifle. I don't shoot it much, I always feel like I'll break something as it is so dainty. I'm thinking of changing my M700 .308 to .250-3000 or .25 Creedmoor, if I can get my new Howa Superlite .308 to shoot better.
__________________
NRA Life Member
taylorce1 is offline  
Old July 13, 2023, 12:04 PM   #6
USAF Ret
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 2017
Posts: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by taylorce1 View Post
I think the old Roberts cartridge is cool. I have a buddy who has used one for several years built on a small ring 96 action without thumb cut. It looks a lot like a M50 FWT with it's Schnabel forend he carved into the stock. His favorite bullet has been the 117 Sierras in that rifle.

Me I'm not shooting much .257 calibers since I sold off my .25-06. I do have a CD mini in .250-3000, I bought it for my daughter many years ago for her to have a low recoiling rifle. I don't shoot it much, I always feel like I'll break something as it is so dainty. I'm thinking of changing my M700 .308 to .250-3000 or .25 Creedmoor, if I can get my new Howa Superlite .308 to shoot better.
What kind of groups are you getting from the HOWA?

.25 Creedmoor. First I have heard of that. Is it a wildcat or are they loading for it?
USAF Ret is offline  
Old July 13, 2023, 03:33 PM   #7
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 8,173
@USAF Ret, on a good day when the stars align about 1.5" for 5 shots.

.25 Creedmoor is a wildcat similar to the .250 AI, just with quality brass available for the Creedmoor cartridges it easy to make. There is also headstamped brass available from Alpha and Peterson that has been available through places like Graf and Sons. I'll probably just go with the regular .250-3000 as I'm already set up for that cartridge.
__________________
NRA Life Member
taylorce1 is offline  
Old July 13, 2023, 03:40 PM   #8
USAF Ret
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 2017
Posts: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by taylorce1 View Post
@USAF Ret, on a good day when the stars align about 1.5" for 5 shots.

.25 Creedmoor is a wildcat similar to the .250 AI, just with quality brass available for the Creedmoor cartridges it easy to make. There is also headstamped brass available from Alpha and Peterson that has been available through places like Graf and Sons. I'll probably just go with the regular .250-3000 as I'm already set up for that cartridge.
Well, you know the story of my 5" MOA rifle. If you send it in, it may take a long time for them to look at it.

You really have me interested in the .25 Creedmoor.
USAF Ret is offline  
Old August 22, 2023, 10:55 AM   #9
eastbank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2008
Location: pa.
Posts: 2,448
my roberts is a kimber montana and it likes hybrid-100 with a 115-117 gr bullet, running right on 3000 fps. three shots from a bench right on a nickle or better, from a cold barrel, three shots to six shots opens up to about a quarte. for a 6.2 lbs scoped rifle fits the bill for a light hunting rifle where i hunt.
eastbank is offline  
Old August 26, 2023, 08:41 AM   #10
std7mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2013
Location: Central Taxylvania..
Posts: 3,609
For deer in both my Ruger 77 MKII in 257 Roberts, and my Savage 111 in 257 Roberts AI I've been sticking mostly with the 115gr bullets.
Nosler Ballistic Tips and Berger VLD.
Both perform differently, but both are effective.

Ligonierbill,

I'd suggest to start playing with the seating depth to get your groups inline.
Most mono's suggest a jump of 0.050" from the lands to start.
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V has been the gold standard in the Roberts loaded to +P for both accuracy & velocity.
Accuracy node from my 22" barrel for the 115gr in the 2,980 range. (+P).
3,168fps with the 100gr bullets.

Ramshot Hunter is extremely close to Alliant RL22.
Works very well in the AI.

Taylorce1,

I'm running both Lapua, and PPU(PVRI PARTIZAN) 22-250 brass necked up for my 250-3000 Savage.
I haven't noticed any major difference between the two performance wise.
24" barrel with low charge of Alliant Varmint with 75gr Sierra HP Varminter hitting in the 3,150fps range.
I also use it for the 90gr Sierra BlitzKings.
Have taken 2 deer the other year with the 100gr Nosler Ballistic Tip over RL17.
Both one shot.
__________________
When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!!

"Januarary 6th insurrection".
Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...
std7mag is offline  
Old August 26, 2023, 02:07 PM   #11
Paul B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 1999
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,783
I haven't done a whole lot with my Winchester M70 Featherweight in .257 Roberts although I did play with several boxes of .25 caliber Barnes TSX bullets. Just never found a sweet spot so set it aside for something more promising. The same make/model rifle in 7x57 shoots nice tight groups.
I did try some 100 gr. Sierra Pro-Hunters and a few 120 gr. Speer Hot Cores but the rifle didn't like them at all.
I used to do most of my load work ups this time of year but as I grow older, shooting at 100+ degrees is no longer as much "fun" as it used to be although it was great for finding pressure quickly.
Paul B.
__________________
COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!
Paul B. is offline  
Old January 15, 2024, 10:34 PM   #12
Deerfossil
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2023
Posts: 4
Help with small ring Mauser in .257R and E-Tips

Have a good condition small ring Mauser rebarreled to .257 Roberts 1:10" twist.
As a California hunter must use non-lead bullets.
What very little commercial .257R ammo is available typically is +P.
Not a reloader yet.
Like Nosler's 100 grain E-Tip +P data, but not sure if the action is strong enough for either commercial +P ammo or Nosler reload data.
How do I SAFELY find out if it is strong enough?
Deerfossil is offline  
Old January 15, 2024, 11:03 PM   #13
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,416
Original 7x57 SAAMI Maximum is 46000 CUP
Original .257 Roberts is 45000 CUP
Big scary .257 +P is 50000 CUP, same as .30-06.

I don’t know whether you are comfortable with a 9% increase, but that is the difference.
About like putting a .270 barrel on a Springfield.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old January 16, 2024, 07:07 AM   #14
ligonierbill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2007
Posts: 2,414
Which small ring Mauser do you have? I depend on The Mauser Bolt Actions M91 Through M98 by Jerry Kuhnhausen. He does not recommend the M94/96 Swede or the various M93/95 rifles for high pressure cartridges. He does recommend the Czech VZ-33 and several others. My 257 Roberts is a large ring 98 rebarreled by E. R. Shaw, who like any competent smith, inspected the action before proceeding.

I have two 6.5x55 Mausers: an original Swede and a commercial FN 98 rebarreled by me. I baby the old Swede, not the FN.

You can call the ammo maker. They may just punt and say no, or not. If you're going to load your own...welcome to the club. Good luck.
ligonierbill is offline  
Old January 16, 2024, 03:07 PM   #15
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,489
The pre-98 Mausers are built to run rounds in the 45,000 psi range (or less), and they do a fine job of it.

There is no good reason to load to higher pressures in these old Mausers, and there is a valid degree of risk doing so.

If you want to jack up the pressure of the swede round (or anything similar) for more performance, there are lots and lots of more modern actions rated for higher pressure to do that in.

One fellow I knew went out and got a Winchester 670 just so he could put a 6.5x55 Swede barrel on it.

Quote:
I have two 6.5x55 Mausers: an original Swede and a commercial FN 98 rebarreled by me. I baby the old Swede, not the FN.
I would phrase this differently. If you're shooting the old Swede rifle to full factory load levels, you aren't "babying" it, you're using it to full design potential. If you're loading hotter for the FN, you're "pushing it" but the FN will take it.

Back in the early 1900s (and before) they didn't have the alloys we have today. Heat treating was done by eye, and the quality of the arm was determined by the quality of the ore and the alloy, and the skill of the maker.

Swedish Mausers were considered the best because Swedish steel was considered the best, and the Swedes knew how to do a good job with it. This was the popular opinion, of the era, and even German made Mausers were considered not quite as good as the Swedes. No real basis for that, just the way many folks felt back then.

With the introduction of the 98 Mauser, of course, that changed.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old January 16, 2024, 04:25 PM   #16
Paul B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 1999
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,783
44AMP, I know some people that would argue with you on that. Personally, I'm kind of somewhere in the middle on the subject. Personally, I like to find one of those early Mausers (93,95 or 96) barreled to the 7x57 and seriously experiment and see just how well they handle pressures.

I have a good friend who took an 1893 Mauser 7x57, reamed the chamber to take the 8x57 round leaving the neck as 7MM. Kind of half way twixt the 7x57 and .280 Rem. in case capacity. He loads that round up to some very high pressures and never has had any kind of problem

A few years back, IIRC, it was Kimber who bought up a bunch of those old Mausers that were chambered to the 7.62 CETME cartridge which has the exact same dimensions as the 7.62 NATO but at a lower pressure for use in the Spanish CETME rifle. Once they got the problem squared away so that the CETME was good using the NATO round they sold off a bunch of the rifles which Kimber bought and restocked them in, again IIRC Ramline stocks. Kimber had the guns tested by the H.P. White laboratory to 100KPSI and they proved safe.

Based on some information i came across quite a few years back, right after the end of WW2 when a lot of older milsurp rifles were thrown on the market as very low prices, ads came out in the few gun rags available at the time stating how unsafe all those guns were. It is strictly my opinion but it would not surprise me if those ads were written and placed by the the big US gunmakers due to the fact that people were buying the cheap milsurps instead of the much higher prices of the 'local" product.

I'll admit the 93,95 and 96 Mausers do not handle escaping gas very well but, then again either does the vaunted pre64 M70 Winchester. It's much better but still not as good as the 98 Mauser. Maybe this is something that would require further study. Ackley had his methods, but I wonder? Just how deeply did he go into it?
Paul B.
__________________
COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!
Paul B. is offline  
Old January 16, 2024, 07:44 PM   #17
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,256
How did Mr Mauser lose his eye?
HiBC is offline  
Old January 16, 2024, 10:17 PM   #18
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,489
Quote:
Based on some information i came across quite a few years back, right after the end of WW2 when a lot of older milsurp rifles were thrown on the market as very low prices, ads came out in the few gun rags available at the time stating how unsafe all those guns were. It is strictly my opinion but it would not surprise me if those ads were written and placed by the the big US gunmakers due to the fact that people were buying the cheap milsurps instead of the much higher prices of the 'local" product.
Actually, there's no doubt in my mind you are correct about that.

Its not widely remembered today, but some of the US big name gun makers actually supported passage of the GCA 68. They did so, because they were mislead, by proponents of the act pushing the import restrictions and downplaying or not even mentioning the other things the act would do.

Once it became law, and its full range of restrictions revealed, the gun makers who had supported passage realized how they had been tricked, but by then, it was law, and too late.

This may, or may not be true, but its the story I heard at the time.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old January 17, 2024, 08:36 AM   #19
ernie8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2018
Posts: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
The pre-98 Mausers are built to run rounds in the 45,000 psi range (or less), and they do a fine job of it.

There is no good reason to load to higher pressures in these old Mausers, and there is a valid degree of risk doing so.

If you want to jack up the pressure of the swede round (or anything similar) for more performance, there are lots and lots of more modern actions rated for higher pressure to do that in.

One fellow I knew went out and got a Winchester 670 just so he could put a 6.5x55 Swede barrel on it.



I would phrase this differently. If you're shooting the old Swede rifle to full factory load levels, you aren't "babying" it, you're using it to full design potential. If you're loading hotter for the FN, you're "pushing it" but the FN will take it.

Back in the early 1900s (and before) they didn't have the alloys we have today. Heat treating was done by eye, and the quality of the arm was determined by the quality of the ore and the alloy, and the skill of the maker.

Swedish Mausers were considered the best because Swedish steel was considered the best, and the Swedes knew how to do a good job with it. This was the popular opinion, of the era, and even German made Mausers were considered not quite as good as the Swedes. No real basis for that, just the way many folks felt back then.

With the introduction of the 98 Mauser, of course, that changed.
The Gew-88 is a small ring action and many fought WWI using 58,000 cup 8mm S ammo with no problems the whole war . How is a German small ring 1910 98 AZ in 8mm weaker than a 96 Swede made in 1918 ? The Germans used the iron ore from Sweden to make their rifle steel and the Germans were leaders in steel development at that time , so how is Swedish made steel stronger ?
ernie8 is offline  
Old January 17, 2024, 10:01 AM   #20
ligonierbill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2007
Posts: 2,414
Gas handling in the event of a case rupture and lack of a third "safety" lug. Hey, don't argue with us, contact Kuhnhausen and tell him how wrong his is.
ligonierbill is offline  
Old January 17, 2024, 11:20 AM   #21
ernie8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2018
Posts: 216
Neither of those has anything to do with the strength of the action . I stated facts and also asked for answers on your statements .
ernie8 is offline  
Old January 17, 2024, 02:35 PM   #22
ligonierbill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2007
Posts: 2,414
First, Jerry Kuhnhausen passed away in 2022. But his book is still available, and required reading for anyone working with old Mausers.

Let's get to facts. It is a fact that the Swede is a quality rifle made from the best steel available at the time. But the design basis was less than 50,000 psi. Even today, the SAAMI spec is 51,000. While the quality of the steel may provide some margin, it doesn't change the design basis. (Note that the CIP spec is 55 ksi, and I admit to exceeding that. But not in my 96!)

Now, the Gewehr 88, the "Commission Rifle". It is the basis for the famous 98, but in fact, Mauser only made a prototype. They never produced 88s. This rifle introduced the 8x57 J, with a 0.318 bore. In 1905, Germany went to the 8x57 JS, with a lighter 0.323 bullet at higher pressure. An important fact is that even the "high pressure" round was initially loaded to less than 47,000 psi. (Remember that the initial load for the 30-06 was a 150 gr at 2,700.) The 88 saw limited use in WWI. But of course, it's the Model 1898 that became the main battle rifle of the Heer.

Kuhnhausen's admittedly conservative recommendation is to use large ring 98s for "standard pressure" rounds, and some of the small rings (favoring the 96) for "low pressure" rounds. No third lug is something he highlights.

I know folks work all sorts of cartridges into these rifles, usually without problems. But I want to be able to hand any of mine to friends or relatives with no worries. For that, I'll listen to a guy who wrote 24 shop manuals. Seems like he knew what he was doing.
ligonierbill is offline  
Old January 17, 2024, 03:44 PM   #23
Paul B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 1999
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,783
"Let's get to facts. It is a fact that the Swede is a quality rifle made from the best steel available at the time. But the design basis was less than 50,000 psi. Even today, the SAAMI spec is 51,000. While the quality of the steel may provide some margin, it doesn't change the design basis. (Note that the CIP spec is 55 ksi, and I admit to exceeding that. But not in my 96!)"

That's where the difference comes in. SAAMI dictates just how much pressure is allowable by designating the Maximum Average Pressure. (MAP) The problem is some MAPs were dictated by the ammo manufacturers while applying for SAAMI sanction to the cartridge. Two very prime examples are the .280 Remington and .35 Whelen which technically have pressure MAPs no different than the 30-06 for fear of them causing problems in Remington's pump and semi-auto rifles. Kind funny, peculiar and not ha ha as those rifles all came chambered to the .270 Win. or has that ammo been quietly downloaded under the table? During a test a while back, I ran some Winchester .308 Win. and 30-06 factory loads over the chronograph. Both cartridges held the same 180 gr. Powder point bullet. Both rifles had 22" barrels. The .308 was an M70 Youth Ranger I won n a raffle that I restocked in a Ramline synthetic so it would fit me better. The 30-06 was a factory original J.C. Higgins M50. The only difference in barrels was the .308 was 1 in 2" and the 06 a 1 in 10" twist. Each was fired five rounds times and four sets of the five for each cartridge. End result was the .308 Win. was actually 20 FPS faster than the 30-06 at 2620 FPS on average. I can't say if the slightly slower 1 in 12" twist made much difference but other than that both barrels were for all practical purposes equal.
I know why the 7x57 has been held to a lower standard but that low standard did cost me a deer back in 1973, the year I bought the rifle. Years later when chronographs became affordable I acquired another rifle chambered to the 7x57. I also purchased two more boxes of the load that lost the deer. I ran five rounds of the new ammo and five rounds from the purchase when I bought the rifle. Average velocity for both loads was a bit over 2200 FPS, nowhere near the 2400 plus FPS advertised. I might as well have been using my grand dad's old 30-30. I also sectioned a bullet from the old and new boxes and the jackets looked way too thick to open properly at that low velocity. Since that time, whenever I buy a new rifle, I always buy a couple of boxes of fresh factory ammo. First to get an idea of how wellit may shoot, felt recoil and chronograph at least five rounds to see a comparison to factory advertised figures.
Paul B.
__________________
COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!
Paul B. is offline  
Old January 17, 2024, 03:55 PM   #24
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,256
My 257 AI is built on an interesting variant. The Mexican Mauser is a 98.

Its a small ring 98 that is also a bit shorter,like the Yugo.

I like having the full length 7x57 mag box. I don't need to short seat my bullets.
HiBC is offline  
Old January 17, 2024, 04:57 PM   #25
ligonierbill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2007
Posts: 2,414
I guess I should give Deerfossil a direct answer. The poor fellow may be thinking he fell in with a bunch of maniacs. I will assume he is shooting a M96 Swede, since that is a popular rifle, and a good one. My load (FN 98 remember) with a 100 Barnes TTSX over Ramshot Hunter runs 3,158. QuickLOAD says that is generating 55,900 psi, somewhat below 257 Roberts +P of 58,000. If I back off to a MAP of 50,000, QL says it will run 3,048. Now, that is just a projection based on actuals from my rifle, but probably in the ballpark.

I use Sierra's Infinity ballistic program. If I insert that reduced load sighted +3" at 150, it will be on at 250 and maintain a velocity >2,000 fps (Barnes does best when they're going fast) to 430 with a drop at that point of 21". Sounds like a deerslayer to me. So, Deerfossil, do call your ammo maker. We'd like to hear what they have to say. But your best bet is to get a good single stage loading rig and work up some Barnes coppers.
ligonierbill is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.09718 seconds with 8 queries