The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 1, 2023, 05:21 PM   #26
stuckinthe60s
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2017
Location: Va., Ct., Mo..
Posts: 831
funny, I never considered a TC a bolt action handgun??
__________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
Distinguished Pistol Shot,NRA Shotgun/Pistol Instructor
NSSA All American, Skeet/Trap Range Owner
stuckinthe60s is offline  
Old June 1, 2023, 05:46 PM   #27
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,482
No, the Contender isn't a bolt action handgun, but the same reasons for use apply to a large degree.

Bolt action handguns are invariably chambered for high intensity rounds (which the bolt action handles flawlessly) most of which exceed the capabilities of the Contender, and are usually not found in regular "pistol" cartridges, simply because those rounds don't need the bolt action strength.

People who do have single shot pistols often have Contenders /Encores as well as bolt action pistols, and for the same general reasons, more power and accuracy than common repeating pistols and smaller, handier packages than full size rifles.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 5, 2023, 09:53 PM   #28
BandeauRouge
member
 
Join Date: August 3, 2023
Posts: 35
But it raises issues though, the rifle cartridge in a hand gun.

Alot of people consider the 30-30 to be useless from an 18" barelled rifled, and not good for more then 100 yards. But toss it in a 14" contender, and its now considered a 200 yard gun, even if you use the same ammunition in both.

You CAN single load a spitzer into a lever gun.

If people complain a 6.4 pound scope and rifle in .308 winchester is "horrid in recoil", then how do they find a 4 pound pistol in .308 winchester to be?
BandeauRouge is offline  
Old August 6, 2023, 02:42 AM   #29
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,256
I am as guilty as anyone for wandering around inside my skull in the world of my imagination.
I certainly have come to some inaccurate conclusions that were not based on real world experience. Just the dark place inside my skull.

A friend said he had an XP-100 that would not hit a mattress at 100 yds.

I was skeptical. I told him I had a high degree of confidence I could get it to shoot 2 MOA at 100 yds.(That space inside my skull again)

Turns out the 221 Fireball was rechambered to .223 cuz its bigger, Gotta be better! He brought me the gun and some White Box 5,56.

When I test fired it, about 25 yds,bullets went through the target sideways.

That old twist rate thing. I loaded some 52 gr Matchkings with H-335.

10 shots made a ragged hole at 100 yds. He is a lefty and he wanted a left hand thumbhole. I did it for him. He was happy.

My experience is with a falling block made by MOA Maximum of 17-4 PH steel.
Very strong. 14 in Douglas bull bbl. Benched,I was accustomed to quarter sized 100 yd groups,usually 3 shots. (I know,but I mentioned it)

260 Rem ,120 gr Nosler BT ,2600 fps. I don't take a bench to the field.

Leaning on my elbow,resting the gun on my knee,at 200 yds ,I usually did not miss a grapefruit or clay bird . Been there,done that,got the tee shirt.

Recoil? Its held just tight enough to not drop it. Hand and arm are free to bounce. Bounce it does! But its not uncomfortable. Trigger is superb.

I can tell you it works.
HiBC is offline  
Old August 6, 2023, 08:00 AM   #30
Nathan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 6,223
The main practical difference Contender vs bolt handgun is the Contender is about a 40-50ksi action where the bolt action will handle 65ksi rounds. The Encore improved that, but at a huge weight penalty.

I think both benefit from moderate sized cases loaded to moderate pressures. 30 Herrett and 375 JDJ are both excellent examples of this!

Then the are the ballistics. People talk about shooting rifles to 600 plus and handguns to 50yds. Well these fill a nice 50-300yd pocket where most game is taken!
Nathan is offline  
Old August 7, 2023, 03:54 PM   #31
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,482
Quote:
Turns out the 221 Fireball was rechambered to .223 cuz its bigger, Gotta be better! He brought me the gun and some White Box 5,56.
Just out of curiosity, was it a stock 10" barrel XP-100 that had been rechambered??

(because that's rather dumb...)

Took me years of wondering, before I finally figured out that the reason Remington came up with the .221 Fireball wasn't just so you got to buy another Remington round but actually for practicality and even a bit of economy.

10" barrel. Look at the loading data, for .221, .222, and .223 in 10" barrels.

Shooting the same bullets, they all get the same speed. The larger cases burn more powder for zero velocity gain. You do get a bigger muzzle blast, from burning 2 - 5gr more powder but that is about it.

IF you go to a longer barrel (such as 14") that changes, but from a 10", you can only get a certain amount of speed and burning a few grains more powder doesn't change that to any significant amount. The Fireball holds all the powder you can use from a 10" tube.

Quote:
People talk about shooting rifles to 600 plus and handguns to 50yds.
Lots of people talk about shooting rifles to 600 yards. I wonder how many actually do. Probably not as many as people who shoot handguns to ranges beyond 50 yards.

Quote:
If people complain a 6.4 pound scope and rifle in .308 winchester is "horrid in recoil", then how do they find a 4 pound pistol in .308 winchester to be?
They find it ..different... because the stock is not slamming into their shoulder and the hands and arms have more "give" to absorb recoil. A hefty jolt to the hands feels much different than getting pounded in the shoulder, and even a higher amount of calculated energy feels like less in your hands than on your shoulder.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 7, 2023, 04:46 PM   #32
Electrod47
Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2021
Location: SE Mississippi
Posts: 89
Remington XP-100 ...why? the 221Fireball...steel rams. It was for a specific purpose and much appreciated. Let mine go in the early 90's...one of my gun deals I still regret.
Electrod47 is offline  
Old August 7, 2023, 05:13 PM   #33
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,256
44 AMP: Yes,it was a 10 in factory 221 Fireball barrel.

I had nothing to do with rechambering it. I was being facetious with my "bigger is better" comment.

I agree with you. IMO,similar rules apply to the AR pistol/SBR thing. A 10 in or less 5.56 does not deliver significantly more than a 10 in 300 BLK.

Another topic that will get eyerolls from me: 7MM-08 is an efficient,balanced cartridge. Significant gains can be had with 7mm-06 Ackley Improved.

Not so much more with a 7mm Rem Mag. Note,few recommended loads exceed 85% load density.
Then along comes Layne Simpson with the 7mm STW?

I don't want to load 140 gr bullets in a 7mm belted mag. I prefer 160 gr plus. A cartridge like the STW vs magazine length requires deep seating or light bullets. Try loading mag length 175 gr plus VLDs for your 7 STW.

I prefer the 30-338 to the 300 Win Mag for the same reason. About .150 in more mag room for 200 gr + or - bullets.

I know,the 300 Win Mag and the 7 STW have many loyal fans. Thats OK.

IMO,the 7x61 Sharpe and Hart and the 308 Norma were better designs.

Last edited by HiBC; August 8, 2023 at 11:46 PM.
HiBC is offline  
Old August 8, 2023, 09:26 AM   #34
Drm50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 10, 2014
Posts: 1,351
I’ve had Rem XPs and Contenders. Far as I’m corncerned they taint a pistol nor rifle. For that matter these massive revolvers and auto pistols that can only be practical shot off a rest are in the same class. I guess I’m pistol snob because I define handgun shooting as standing up on your hind legs and shooting with irons.
Drm50 is offline  
Old August 8, 2023, 03:52 PM   #35
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,771
I don't personally have any use for one. But I understand the appeal for some people. I think one would make a great hunting gun for someone who wants something more compact and lighter than any shoulder fired rifle could ever be.
__________________
"If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong"

Winston Churchill
jmr40 is offline  
Old August 8, 2023, 06:28 PM   #36
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,414
Somebody made a bolt action free pistol to compete with the usual falling blocks.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old August 8, 2023, 06:37 PM   #37
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,482
Quote:
I think one would make a great hunting gun for someone who wants something more compact and lighter than any shoulder fired rifle could ever be
That is precisely the point. Something that, when correctly set up and properly used is as accurate at normal hunting ranges as a rifle, but is shorter, lighter, and still has adequate power for the chosen game.

Quote:
I guess I’m pistol snob because I define handgun shooting as standing up on your hind legs and shooting with irons.
I'll see your snob, and raise you, one hand.
Come out and visit, bring your favorite iron sighted pistol, I'll bring mine, we'll shoot, from our hind legs, ONE HANDED, off hand in hip pocket, lit Marlboro dangling from corner of lip optional. See who rings the 200yd gong most often, shall we??
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 9, 2023, 08:44 PM   #38
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,421
Quote:
I think one would make a great hunting gun for someone who wants something more compact and lighter than any shoulder fired rifle could ever be
That is precisely the point. Something that, when correctly set up and properly used is as accurate at normal hunting ranges as a rifle, but is shorter, lighter, and still has adequate power for the chosen game.
Don't forget at one time metallic silhouette was all the rage and those XPs (especially) shined in that regard. My former local gunsmith built many silhouette pistol and benchrest rifles and he was a very excellent competitor. Now, this was back in the 80s
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old August 11, 2023, 10:20 AM   #39
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 11,741
I like that this has spawned good conversation and all respect/apologies to the OP because what I'll say comes across as obnoxious, but it isn't my intention to be obnoxious but to drive home the point:

"answer to a question that was never asked" is amongst the WORST tropes kicked out in gun forums. Of zero value other than finding anyone who enjoys the target subject and dismissing them entirely. And a horrendous gun forum trope when you simply consider what damn near all of us active in the forums -DO- with guns.

We are not the general populace.
We are not the average shooter.
We are not the random general gun buyer.

We are enthusiasts. Most folks that burn time and energy on gun forums are quite deep in to this hobby and enjoy all wild facets of the game and that would certainly include specialty handguns.
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old August 11, 2023, 11:54 AM   #40
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,482
I missed out on a few decades of pistol shooting enjoyment by ignoring the single shots, because they were only single shots....

Sure,. I'd read a bit about them (before there were home computers, let alone the internet) but wasn't really that interested, because, after all, they only held one shot.

Then one day, just out of curiosity, I handled a Contender at a gun shop. Balance was ...ok, not great, but ok, sights were decent irons, and adjustable, but what got me was the trigger pull.

SWEET!!!! short, light, crisp, it was great. SO, naturally, I didn't buy that gun.

But I did buy one at the next gun show I went to, found one in .45Colt/.410, both calibers I had guns and ammo for, and the price was acceptable.

That gun was followed by more barrels, and then even more barrels and eventually a second frame, and, stocks, & etc.

IT taught me a lot, not the least of which is that pistols aren't just about being able to dump multiple rounds into the A zone in the blink of an eye, at spitting distance. (that is an entirely valid skill, but as the Bard pointed out, there are other things in life, as well)

Call it Zen and the art of handgunning, or what ever you like, but its about ONE PERFECT SHOT. Think you're a good pistol shot? You might be right. OR you might just be good enough, and perhaps fast. Get a Contender, get a .22LR and that gun will show you just how really "good" you are, or aren't. Shoot offhand, iron sights, and see how well you can do. You might be in for an education, and a personal challenge. I was.

I had always had a small want for an XP-100. First, I thought they looked neat, and second because I like Rem 600 series carbines. After getting to know the single shot through my Contenders, my desire for the Remington grew a lot. Took me a couple years of haunting the gun shows to find what I wanted.

Which was an XP-100 in original stock factory trim. turns out they weren't very common, as, thanks to the popularity of shooting steel with them lead to most of the ones I ran across, both at the shows and in the shops were customized guns. Different stocks, rebarreled for a variety of calibers.
Didn't want one of those...finally got one fully stock, the Rem nylon stock, rib and in its original .221 Fireball. With a nice scope, too.

Trigger on that one is not just sweet, it is outstanding.

I've got or had pistols in nearly all the flavors at one time or another. Revolvers from small to huge, semis from .22lrs to .44/45 magnums. Yes, I have and shoot some of those giant pistols others think impractical or impossible, and my single shots range from .22LR to .45-70.

IF defensive handgunning is your thing, go for it! IF its your only thing, enjoy! But if your handgunning is limited to service pistols and such, you have no idea of the fun and the valuable skill training you are missing out on.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 12, 2023, 12:46 PM   #41
stinkeypete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 1,281
^^^ what he said. We have a very diverse sport. It used to be that accuracy was the holy grail.
__________________
My book "The Pheasant Hunter's Action Adventure Cookbook" is now on Amazon.
Tall tales, hunting tips, butchering from bird to the freezer, and recipes.
stinkeypete is offline  
Old August 13, 2023, 09:58 AM   #42
Ricklin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Location: SW Washington state
Posts: 1,965
To tag along on a rahter famous quote.
Only accurate guns are interesting.
__________________
ricklin
Freedom is not free
Ricklin is offline  
Old August 13, 2023, 02:21 PM   #43
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,482
Accuracy is where the bolt action pistol, or even the Contender really shines.

The other area it shines in is being able to shoot cartridges that revolvers and service class semi autos cannot.

bottle necked cases are no big deal in the single shot, but those with sharp shoulders rarely work well in revolvers and service class semi autos are severely limited in the size of the rounds then can use.

There are even single shot pistols that can handle the big belted magnum rifle rounds, and while there is a measurable performance increase, I consider the waste of powder and power to offset the gain. And, that's not even considering the increased recoil.

Single shot pistols have a place, they are a specialty tool, very good at what they do, and I find them to be a lot of fun, as well. They aren't made to do everything, they're made to do one thing, REALLY well.

The ones I have, do.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 13, 2023, 05:27 PM   #44
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,256
I believe it was Townsend Whelen who said "Only accurate rifles are interesting"

I have very little interest in truly inaccurate firearms.

But between the competitive benchrest rifles and Brown Bess Muskets are a lot of interesting firearms that are perfectly adequate at doing their job.

Unless their job is winning bench rest competitions.

While its always risky to draw a subjective line in the sand,John Plaster suggested (in his book "The Ultimate Sniper") That a rifle that delivers a consistent 3/4 MOA performance or better is adequate for a serious sniper rifle.

He then goes on to explain very few shooters are capable of matching their rifles for performance in the field.

Accuracy is an admirable pursuit, but a pre-ar Win M-70 30-06 that shoots 2.5 MOA is still a thing of wonder and beauty.

The 250 yd clean kill is no less interesting when enjoying seared backstraps on the plate.

There comes a point where "More accurate" is satisfying on its own, but as a practical matter, is largely ego.

Yes,its cool to have a rifle that usually delivers 0.4 MOA at 100 yds! Wonderful!

But a 2 MOA at 100 yd rifle misses the point of aim by a maximum of 1 inch,and its usually closer.

How many of us can hold better than that without a bench?

If I am a 3 MOA shooter, it doesn't matter much whether I have a 0.5 MOA gun or a 1 MOA gun.( The difference is 1/4 in at 100 yds)

That might matter at a benchrest match or a general bragging session (among fishermen) but many a family has been fed by a person with an heirloom Win 94 or a Bubba Custom SMLE that nobody wasted the ammo to figure out what it would group.

Last edited by HiBC; August 13, 2023 at 05:39 PM.
HiBC is offline  
Old August 13, 2023, 06:55 PM   #45
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,421
Quote:
Which was an XP-100 in original stock factory trim. turns out they weren't very common, as, thanks to the popularity of shooting steel with them lead to most of the ones I ran across, both at the shows and in the shops were customized guns. Different stocks, rebarreled for a variety of calibers.
Didn't want one of those...finally got one fully stock, the Rem nylon stock, rib and in its original .221 Fireball. With a nice scope, too.

Trigger on that one is not just sweet, it is outstanding.
My XP was in 7mmBR and yes, that trigger was amazing, MAYBE 3 pounds, maybe. With my (US made) Burris compact fixed power, it would put three shots into less than 1 inch at 100 yards. Being LH and having the bolt on the right side was like having a LH gun.........
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old August 14, 2023, 06:15 PM   #46
gwpercle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2012
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Posts: 1,718
How else you going to get a 308 Win. handgun ?

Besides they just looked so danged cool and futuristic ...
When you hauled one out , everyone on the range wanted to see and/or shoot it !
Gary
gwpercle is offline  
Old August 15, 2023, 11:17 AM   #47
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,482
from my point of view the questions should be Bolt action hand guns. WHY NOT?

__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 18, 2023, 10:49 AM   #48
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 11,533
Quote:
That might matter at a benchrest match or a general bragging session (among fishermen) but many a family has been fed by a person with an heirloom Win 94 or a Bubba Custom SMLE that nobody wasted the ammo to figure out what it would group.
Truth in what you say; it just depends what the shooter is "into." I see the pre-season rifle crowd show up where I shoot two weeks before deer season every year and generally they shoot rifles that very likely they've rarely if ever cleaned and usually they call it good if they can put 3 to 5 shots at 5" or less on a paper plate at 100 yds. Not my thing--but they generally fill their tags.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old August 19, 2023, 10:31 AM   #49
Ricklin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Location: SW Washington state
Posts: 1,965
It would be a boring world if we only had vanilla. If you wish to shoot a .505 Gibbs in a handgun? More power to you! Please, if I am at the range that day, let us all know before you uncork that monster. Besides that, I wanna watch.
__________________
ricklin
Freedom is not free
Ricklin is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.13595 seconds with 8 queries