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Old April 10, 2023, 11:37 AM   #1
Metal god
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Is it the gun and load or the shooter ?

I was watching some instructional videos on how to shoot pistol . I’ve noticed some of the pro shooters say you need to reduce muzzle rise and they have close to none when they shoot . I got to thinking , do they really have that much control over the pistol ( of course they do because they are showing they do ) or is it more the light loads with light bullets being shot from there modded tricked out guns tuned specifically to that load that makes it so much easier to shoot . Sometimes there 9mm shots look like they are shooting 22lr based on recoil , muzzle rise and grouping. Are they really that good or is the equipment a substantial aspect of there abilities?

I know I shoot a 22lr target pistol substantially better then a off the shelf standard 9mm . A buddy has a P-210 that is so easy to shoot accurately it deceives you on how well you can shoot because I can’t shoot any other 9mm that well .

IDK maybe I’m just jealous
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Old April 10, 2023, 11:41 AM   #2
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It’s the shooter. The fast male shooters seem to have a powerful grip. The female shoots with equally tuned guns are just a hair off the pace. Not alot, but would generally keep them out of top 5 or so.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure mouse fart loads help!
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Old April 10, 2023, 02:12 PM   #3
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Quote:
I was watching some instructional videos on how to shoot pistol .
Load the gun, aim the loaded gun, fire. You need a video for that??

Seriously, though, from your description, you were watching videos about how to shoot a repeat shots FAST.

Fast follow up shots is what many people focus on. And its all of what some people focus on, because that is what is most important to them. Or, they think it is....

Being the terminology obsessed PITA I am, to me I'd point out that there are lots of different "ways to shoot a pistol" and controlling the gun for fast follow up shots is just ONE of them.

It goes without saying the MOST important thing is to hit what you are aiming at. (doesn't it?) I forget who said it, but it is true "you can't miss fast enough to win". So we'll just assume that hitting the target at POI is the baseline, and go from there.

Is it the gun, the load, or the shooter???
The answer is ...
Yes.

All three are a package deal, all three are factors in every shot. Which one is more, or most important???

That can vary. Most of the time, the biggest factor will be the shooter, but sometimes it is the gun. The load is still a factor but seldom the biggest one, UNTIL you start talking about very light loads, then it takes the lead.

"Cat sneeze" loads are light specially to reduce recoil and speed recovery time. Very good for some games. Not so good for other uses.

Most of the time, the dominant factor in controlling recoil and fast follow up shots is the shooter. Physical ability, and skill/experience. No question about that, I think.

Next up, the gun. And, here it gets more "variable". The gun does modify what the shooter can do with it. The same shooter, shooting the same load can have very different times, shooting different guns. Particularly when the guns are radically different.

Consider, SA revolver, vs. DA revolver vs. semi auto. Same shooter shooting the same ammo will turn in different times shooting those different guns.

I certainly do.

The best pilot in the world can't make a biplane fly as fast as a jet fighter.

Different people are differently capable. There are some people with exceptional abilities. Some of them make videos.....
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Old April 10, 2023, 02:59 PM   #4
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No question about that, I think. That is signature line material right there. : )
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Old April 10, 2023, 03:58 PM   #5
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did the fast shooters hit anything?
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Old April 10, 2023, 04:06 PM   #6
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Little tiny group center mass . To be far it was Jerry Michaluk maybe the fastest pistol shooter to ever live haha .
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Old April 10, 2023, 05:25 PM   #7
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If it was Jerry Miculek he was probably shooting a revolver. So yes, it is what I call "bunny fart" loads. Felt recoil is about the same as a .22LR. I'm currently working on something similar for my .38 Spcl revolver. A whole lot of fun to shoot, low recoil, and surprisingly accurate.
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Old April 10, 2023, 06:04 PM   #8
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And Jerry offers (for free) vids on Youtube to pass on shooting fast and accurate.
The margins may be very small in world class competition. Along with being a world class athlete/shooter, every advantage available in the rule book will be considered.
And in some classes,thats box stock service or carry guns.

Equiptment is only an edge. I could spend $30,000 on a pistol and I still would not be able to stand with Jerry,or Rob,Or Julie.

And any of the top shooters could show remarkable performance with a $500 0r $600 Glock,S+W M+P, Philipine 1911, etc as long as its reliable.

There IS something to be said for Jerry's advice : "Be the first at the range and the last to leave"

Julie Golob is recovering from rotator cuff surgery. I've damaged both my rotator cuffs.Its painful and disabling. Slow to heal. It makes buttoning your pants impossible.
I've been watching her progress. She approaches her rehab/recover as a dedicated,committed Champion.

And she is making progress. Inspired by a quote her Husband gave her, she set ego and what she knows aside because her strong side is out of action.

And she will not be helpless. She will make her weak hand side her strong side,for now. An iron sighted 4 in 9mm Shield Plus. A left side holster . And practice.
And she does a whole PT routine. She proudly showed a Dutch oven rabbit she was able to serve her family for Easter, Family lifted the Dutch oven for her.
Yes,I'm a fan.

You will note top pistol shooters have wiry forearms. A lot of the "fast Shooting" comes from grip and absorbing recoil. Thats in the shooter.

An edge can be found (maybe) in tuning the cycle. An older brother has been a competitive shooter. He was placing about mid pack in some Ft Benning Invitational as "That Old Fat Guy". He has passed some parts on to me. Even a Ben Jones built Guncraft 38 Super single stack racegun. I passed it on to my younger brother. He found Andy of Andy's Guns in Denver. Andy rubbed a little love in that gun. It runs really good. It was a Champ's gun in the 1970's, Single stack days. Near 50 years and high round count. 38 Super "Major loads" Very good condition. Built right.

Andy had a Caspian double stack frame a customer started on and abandoned. I bought it cheap, It was warped in the dust cover area, Figuring I had nothing to lose, I cast Cerro-safe in key areas to support the frame and boldly beat it into submission with a dead blow hammer,
From the junk bucket came a Springfield slide with a comped 38 Super race gun barrel. HMMMM. So a double stack 38 Super race gun was built. " The Sow's Ear"
Along the way, was some load developement. Its shooting 1400 fps + with (as I remember) with 125 gr bullets.
Brother accessed high speed industrial vid cam . Load, springs,comp,muzzle bounce were optimized via the camera.

Even with the 40,000 psi pressures, the "sweet spot" was an 11 lb recoil spring. Many would intuitively install a 24 lb spring. Hard on the slide stop area . The 11 lb spring working with the comp was the least disturbing to the frame. The gun lasts longer.

I did most of the work on that gun, but Andy is a rare resource and "It ain't his first rodeo" That man made it a sewing machine. Little brother did a nice Cerro-Coat job on it. I still call it "The Sow's Ear" Its been running good for years now.

Back to your question. Watch Jerry shoot anything upside down and backwards over his shoulder with a mirror.

You can't buy that skill.

Can a gun be tuned to improve time/score? Absolutely!!

But as Humans,we are born with the capacity to miss the barn with a handgun. From the inside

The greatest source of inaccuracy and slowness is the shooter, and the shooter is the greatest opportunity for improvement.

Self taught? Stumbling along on our own, teaching ourselves bad habits we might achieve mediocrity.

But imagine if Jerry was your coach. Or Rob Leatham. And you had dedication and desire

As the song said "It don't come easy"

Last edited by HiBC; April 10, 2023 at 10:39 PM.
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Old April 10, 2023, 06:31 PM   #9
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What videos are you talking about?
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Old April 10, 2023, 06:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike38 View Post
If it was Jerry Miculek he was probably shooting a revolver. So yes, it is what I call "bunny fart" loads. Felt recoil is about the same as a .22LR. I'm currently working on something similar for my .38 Spcl revolver. A whole lot of fun to shoot, low recoil, and surprisingly accurate.
What loads does he use?
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Old April 10, 2023, 09:05 PM   #11
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I think it was Rob Leatham, no longer recall for sure, but one of the top shooters, in an interview somewhere around two decades ago was asked, "how much do you shoot in practice in a year?"

He replied, "about 80,000..."

"80,000 rounds?"

"No, 80,000 DOLLARS of ammo"



When you practice like that, you get and stay good.
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Old April 10, 2023, 09:42 PM   #12
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Thanks HiBC good info

Yeah I’m not a hand gun guy , I like rifle shooting , the longer the better . I mean I shoot pistol a lot but never cared to shoot them as accurately as I do when I’m shooting rifles . Meaning spending the same amount of time on pistol as I do shooting rifle . I’ll spend 4 to 8 hrs straight shooting rifle . An hour maybe a tad more shooting pistol and $80.0000 worth …. Forget about it but now that I have a reason to shoot pistol more I will , thank god I reload and have the components to do so .

This is the video that lead to this thread see 11:20 for the very little muzzle rise . I just don’t see how that is possible with out custom loads and a tuned gun . Watch those last 3 shots , virtually no muzzle rise .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s
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Old April 10, 2023, 10:01 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal god
This is the video that lead to this thread see 11:20 for the very little muzzle rise . I just don’t see how that is possible with out custom loads and a tuned gun . Watch those last 3 shots , virtually no muzzle rise .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s
But look at the opening sequence, and then the sequence that begins at 0:23 or 0:24 -- plenty of muzzle rise there. So a lot depends on the load.

And, as Nathan points out, a lot depends on grip. Not just hand strength (I remember your saying in a different thread that you have large hands, but how strong is your grip?), but especially wrist and forearm strength. When I used to attend the SHOT Show every year, I met Todd Jarrett when he was Para-Ordnance's pro shooter, and I met Travis Tomasie and spent enough time with him that we're on a first name basis and he actually answers my e-mails. Both of them have HUGE forearms and wrists, and Travis has discussed with me how he trains to maintain wrist and forearm strength.

Rob Leatham? I'm not a small guy, but Rob towers over me and he's built like a rock. I seriously doubt that the handgun exists that can overpower Rob Leatham.
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Old April 10, 2023, 10:58 PM   #14
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The gun Jerry is shooting is Magnaported. This helps!
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Old April 10, 2023, 11:25 PM   #15
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I'm sure porting helps a lot , I have a few rifles with brakes and love how well they work .

Quote:
I remember you saying in a different thread that you have large hands, but how strong is your grip?
That is something I've worked with over the last 10 years or so . Do to my work ( construction ) my grip strength is more then good enough the question how much of that should I use and that's what I've "kinda" worked on , again not really a handgun guy so "worked on " is all relative .

Quick firearms history/experience . Shot gun with family growing up , just plinking no hunting . Early 20's did armed security do to work injury and did a pretty deep dive into guns for a few years . Then life happened ( family ) and guns went to the way back burner for 20-ish years maybe . Kids all grown up and gone and firearms started being a "new" hobby again haha . Then I found these firearms forums and I went down the rabbit hole and don't think I've seen the light of day since

While early in the rabbit hole I was drawn to rifle big time and that's where the majority of my time and money has been spent while I've been down here . I suddenly have a reason to take handgun shooting much more serious and my lack of effort over the last 10 or 15 years shows . I don't suck with a hand gun , in fact in most classes I take regardless of type I'm almost always the top handgun shooter in the class but I can't shoot a handgun as well as I can a rifle . To be fare to most of those class mates , they were mostly your average gun owner that might shoot a few boxes a year . Even not shoot much in my eyes I still shoot pistols substantially more then your average gun owner . I probably average 1.75 times a month over the course of a year .

I mean to give you an idea how little I practice with handguns . Just last year after this 10+ year rabbit hole I figured out I shoot better ( WAY BETTER ) if I take my prescription glasses off and just use nice clear safety glasses . For years I could not figure out why I could not keep my front sight in focus and if I shot more then 30rds continuously I'd start seeing 2 front sights and I had to choose one to use . One day I forgot to put my glasses back on before shooting and was surprised how clear that front sight was ( TOTAL FACE PLANT )

So yeah I'm going to have some bad habits to work out as well which I have been working on over the last couple years , just not as much as I now believe I should have been . I'm going shooting on Wednesday which I hope to work a couple things out . Not so much as if I'd been done figuring things out but more figuring out what is most pressing to work on first . Right now I believe it's my grip on a small to me firearm . I know I'm done spending money of mods for the gun to allow it to fit better . If I can't get this M&P Shield to work well enough to be completely comfortable carrying it . I'll go to a larger frame firearm like the G26 or XD compact or sub compact .
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Old April 11, 2023, 06:27 AM   #16
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Is it the gun and load or the shooter ?

You’re comparing yourself, someone who you admit hasn’t been shooting pistols much in some time, to arguably one of the better shooters of a generation. I don’t think you’re properly crediting the time someone like Miculek has put into shooting over decades. I think Miculek is the one that likes to say, “You get to be the best by being the first person on the range and the last one off.” And he’s been doing that for a long time now.
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Old April 11, 2023, 09:47 AM   #17
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Do image searches on the following folks and look at their forearms.

Bob Vogel
Jerry Miculek
Max Michel
BJ Norris
Daniel Horner

Looks to me like these guys have above average hand strength--probably from working hard to develop it. That plus good technique, plus a lot of practice is going to provide really good muzzle control.
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Old April 11, 2023, 10:01 AM   #18
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To be far (sic) it was Jerry Michaluk.
That's a bit like saying: To be fair, it was Neil Armstrong; how come I can't walk on the moon like him?

I don't have much to add other than yes, it's all of the above. A good competitive shooter likely has all those things going for him/her: Light loads, tricked out gun, and lots n lots of practice.
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Old April 11, 2023, 11:09 AM   #19
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Ok so what I’m hearing is I can’t just wish it and it will be so ? But my mommy said I was special !
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Old April 11, 2023, 02:52 PM   #20
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Quote:
it was Neil Armstrong; how come I can't walk on the moon like him?
there's no reason you can't walk on the moon, if you've got the money to pay for the ride.

No idea how many billions NASA spent getting there, but they did it, so could you. Probably even a bit cheaper (adjusted for inflation) as NASA did all the basic R&D at taxpayer cost. Modern tech will, of course change things, but some basics don't change.

Although I don't know why you'd want to go to the moon. Since we went, and discovered its not made of cheese, we haven't gone back.....

Quote:
Do image searches on the following folks and look at their forearms.
Ok, so Popeye should be a really good fast competitive pistol shot then???

Not sure, maybe, if he could actually SEE the targets...

Anyway, before we get completely invested in the belief that you need (Or develop) a tremendous physique to be a "master class" shooter, take a look at Ed McGivern.

And, his equipment, and loads....and ONE of his records...that even Miculek couldn't beat. TO date, I don' t think anyone has....

His "Special equipment" was S&W revolvers, and while I'm sure the actions were as slick as could be, there were no brakes, no ports, no comps. Nowhere in anything I've ever seen written about him is there any mention of light or reduced recoil loads. I will admit I have not read his book (its on my "hope to someday" list, still,) as far as I know, (so far) he shot those record times with regular .38 Special ammo.

For us "mere mortals" Generally speaking, the shooter matters most, the gun matters a lot, and the load matters "some".

The shooter supplies their physical ability, the technique used, and their skill in doing it. The gun matters, not so much when you're talking about small differences between very similar guns, but a lot when the guns are radically different. (extreme example, I believe even I could beat a master's time for 5 shots if I'm shooting my Govt Model .45 and the master is shooting my T/C Contender .45-70 Less extreme example; Me using a S&W M28 and the master shooing a Chief Special both shooting standard 158@850fps ammo. The master would probably still smoke my time but the heavy gun's lower recoil would probably let me beat someone of my approximate skill level)

The load generally matters least, compared to the other two, but it still matters. But, in some cases IS the dominant factor in recovery time.
(example, .38 wadcutters vs. full house .357 Mag. Same shooter, same gun, different times due to ammo recoil levels)

Its always a combination. All factors matter. Which one matters most depends on the exact mix at the time.
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Old April 11, 2023, 10:37 PM   #21
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It all matters, but is very much the shooter. I used to shoot handguns quite a bit, and thought I was a pretty competent shooter. I wondered if those top guys could really be that much better than me. In the fullness of time, I got to see some of those top guys shoot. Yes, they really were that much better than me;(
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Old April 12, 2023, 12:01 AM   #22
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Ok, so Popeye should be a really good fast competitive pistol shot then???
No.

As I said, above average hand strength (probably from working hard to attain it) plus good technique, plus a lot of practice is going to provide really good muzzle control.

Of course that's not the entire story in terms of being competitive, but it does speak to the OP's question which was about muzzle rise and control.
Quote:
Anyway, before we get completely invested in the belief that you need (Or develop) a tremendous physique to be a "master class" shooter, take a look at Ed McGivern.
I didn't say anything about a "tremendous physique", my comments were exclusively focused on hand strength/forearm muscles.

Based on the video I've seen of him cranking off DA rounds one-handed at ridiculous speed and still hitting the target, I'd wager that his hand strength was well above average.

Unfortunately, I can't find even a single picture of him where he's not wearing a long-sleeved shirt that would allow us to compare the musculature of his forearms to that of modern day top pistoleros.
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Old April 12, 2023, 04:22 PM   #23
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It's the shooter haha

Wrong thread
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Old April 12, 2023, 05:51 PM   #24
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Wrong thread
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Old April 12, 2023, 08:53 PM   #25
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In my case it was cataracts.You might get your eyes checked
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