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Old April 19, 2023, 10:42 PM   #26
Metal god
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I’ll be going to the gunshow Saturday, I’ll update what I end up getting .

What do we think of the Underwoon extreme defender in 38+p ? It’s designed “not” to expand .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2F0keD...1lIGRlZmVuZGVy
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Last edited by Metal god; April 19, 2023 at 10:48 PM.
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Old April 30, 2023, 10:45 AM   #27
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I am still carrying a Speer 146 grain LSWCHP over a stiff charge of SR4756 powder. It performs, and I see no reason to change up now after 40+ years
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Old April 30, 2023, 02:10 PM   #28
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I bought some Fed 130gr +p punch ammo . Went to range on Friday and never got off the rifle range . I never tried them out . I had went to the gun show expecting to find any and all ammo I was looking for but did not . The punch was the only 38spl +p ammo I found that was on my list .

Bought some 9mm gold dot and Win Ranger ammo as well . Had plans on testing all that new ammo on Friday but was having to much fun on the 300yd rifle range to pack up and move a couple hundred yards up the hill to the pistol range . Next I guess .
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Old May 2, 2023, 06:41 PM   #29
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I'm currently carrying 158 gr LSWCHP +P Buffalo Bore in my K-frame .38 Spls. And Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot short barrel +Ps in my Airweights.
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Old May 8, 2023, 05:24 PM   #30
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This is what I use as well. Buffalo Bore or Underwood 158gr LSWCHP +P in my 2.5" SW M19. Speer 130gr JHP short barrel +P in my SW M60.
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Old May 13, 2023, 01:26 PM   #31
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I have most of a case of Winchester .38 Special 158 GR semi wadcutters. If I carry a .38, that’s what’s in it.

I doubt it will expand. Might deform a little. But, I feel good that it will at least go in deep enough to hit important stuff.
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Old July 2, 2023, 09:21 PM   #32
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For my J-frames, I have used the Hornady 140 gr XTP's , they no longer make.
For the 2"-inchers and 4" barrels, it was always POA was POI.

Viewed a U-tube video where the presenter he was using .32S&W-L, and used OTC ammo,
it was surprising to see the .32 S&W Long wadcutter exceeded the 12" FBI penetration.
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Old July 5, 2023, 03:09 PM   #33
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When you seek personal defensive training you will be advised to NOT use "+p" for your defensive carry ammo. If you are involved in a defensive situation that ended by you ceasing a threat , guarenteed you will face civil liability. A caniving plaintiff attorney will absolutely try to elevate the "defendant" to a "killer" because he "felt the need" to arm himself with optional "higher velocity" ammo. You do whatever you want but just something to think about .
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Old July 5, 2023, 03:15 PM   #34
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Quote:
When you seek personal defensive training you will be advised to NOT use "+p" for your defensive carry ammo. If you are involved in a defensive situation that ended by you ceasing a threat , guarenteed you will face civil liability. A caniving plaintiff attorney will absolutely try to elevate the "defendant" to a "killer" because he "felt the need" to arm himself with optional "higher velocity" ammo. You do whatever you want but just something to think about .
Please cite a case where that has happened.

Last edited by trophyrider; July 5, 2023 at 03:16 PM. Reason: Puncuation
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Old July 5, 2023, 03:59 PM   #35
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Lucky Gunner Labs

Although not ALL ammo is tested at above labs on line
it has been my go-to for details and the ability to sort the results according to my preferences.

Everyone has a preference or a boss telling them what to use but ... based upon what?

You'll also find results based upon barrel length ... very important to outcomes, especially for the 357mag caliber.
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Old July 6, 2023, 12:17 AM   #36
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I bought a case of 158 gr lead semiwadcutter a few years ago. If I’m carrying a .38. That’s what’s in it.

It’s a bullet out of a snub. Expansion is questionable. At least, poke a hole as deep as you can.
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Old August 5, 2023, 12:06 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
Any time I've seen test results using actual vintage ammo shot and compared to modern ammo in the same guns, it shows that both are loaded pretty much the same.

As nearly as I can tell, the idea that modern ammo is watered down comes from a combination of things:

1. Confusion about the changeover from CUP to PSI pressure measurements.

2. The fact that SAAMI gradually convinced ammo manufacturers (starting in 1977) to change their velocity measurements for revolver ammunition from being measured in long unvented test barrels to vented test barrels with lengths that corresponded better to the barrel lengths people were actually buying and using.

3. The fact that chronographs became very common and that made it more difficult for ammunition manufacturers to get creative with their velocity specifications.

More information about #2.
This is an interesting catalog from 1977. On page 37, Remington discusses their changeover to using 4" vented test barrels for their revolver data and you can see that in some cases, they publish both data sets for comparison. In some cases, you can see that velocities apparently dropped by 300fps or more simply because they were measured more realistically.
http://cartridgecollectors.org/conte...%20Catalog.pdf
a vented test barrel doesnt always create a linear reason as to why a given load could experience a 200 fps velocity drop in the loading manual.

There online pundits who managed to deduce from publications that certain ammunition like 38 smith and wesson was watered down due to low quality break tops.
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Old August 5, 2023, 01:12 AM   #38
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a vented test barrel doesnt always create a linear reason as to why a given load could experience a 200 fps velocity drop in the loading manual.
It's not just the venting, it's also the fact that the testing was standardized in a 4" barrel instead of the much longer test barrels that were commonly used in older test results.

The tests with vintage ammo compared to modern loadings has, in every test I've ever seen the results for, showed that the apparent differences were simply the result of changes in how velocity was commonly measured, not due to an actual change in the ammunition.

And, in addition to the tests, we have the Remington ammo catalog from the timeframe of the changeover explaining exactly what happened--and showing the results of measurements done the old and new way. With differences that are generally in the ballpark of 200fps.

As Remington says, and underlines for emphasis: "Although values are quite different, the ammunition is absolutely unchanged."
Quote:
There online pundits who managed to deduce from publications that certain ammunition like 38 smith and wesson was watered down due to low quality break tops.
Over the years, SAAMI has altered the standards for a very few "quasi-obsolete" cartridges to avoid incidents with commonly encountered vintage firearms of dubious strength or quality. That's a very different situation.
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Old August 5, 2023, 03:35 PM   #39
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38sp Super Police

I got some 200gr lead Winchester 38sp. It use to be called super police. That’s what I got stoked in my cruz’n piece a m36 S&W. I know a bunch of the foil hat club says they shot clear through and endanger innocents. Other half says they might bounce back and hit you. Both may be true but at SD ranges the tin foil hat ain’t going to save you.
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Old August 5, 2023, 09:33 PM   #40
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Smith and Wesson used to say full size revolvers could safely fire small amounts of 38/44 ammunition, now these guns are "only fire with regular 38 special ammunition".


Then you have guns like the Armscor 38 special revolvers that are ONLY safe to fire with Armscor produced ammunition of max 158 grain fmj at a max 850 FPS if you read the manual pdf in a literal translation.

Alot of companies have been making low end revolvers these days, the taurus 856 is the most talked about on the smith forum as being "beefy enough for elmer keith load data".
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Old August 6, 2023, 12:38 PM   #41
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Glaser slugs


https://shopcorbon.com/index.php?rou...product_id=113
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Old August 6, 2023, 01:58 PM   #42
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Good old wadcutter gets my vote
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Old August 7, 2023, 12:51 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BandeauRouge
Then you have guns like the Armscor 38 special revolvers that are ONLY safe to fire with Armscor produced ammunition of max 158 grain fmj at a max 850 FPS if you read the manual pdf in a literal translation.
It's not necessary to read the manual in translation, because it's available in English. And it doesn't say anything remotely like what you claim it says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armscor M200/M206 Manual
The M200 REVOLVER is chambered for Cal.38 Special cartridges manufactured in accordance with standard industry practice.
Source (Page 9): https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/55939...-_Revolver.pdf
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Old August 7, 2023, 11:28 AM   #44
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page 7 the big sheet, it lists caliber as 38 special.. not +p

also using an outdated version of the manual is pretty cheap trick to prove a point you want to prove.. go to the actual company website, open the details page for the m200 and hit the specifications button, it opens a new webpage with an image, here is a link

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/55939...261---M200.jpg

caliber 38 special, NOT +p listed, bullet weight 158 grain fmj muzzle velocity of 891 fps
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Old August 7, 2023, 01:04 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BandeauRouge
page 7 the big sheet, it lists caliber as 38 special.. not +p

also using an outdated version of the manual is pretty cheap trick to prove a point you want to prove.. go to the actual company website, open the details page for the m200 and hit the specifications button, it opens a new webpage with an image, here is a link

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/55939...261---M200.jpg

caliber 38 special, NOT +p listed, bullet weight 158 grain fmj muzzle velocity of 891 fps
Outdated? Cheap trick?

The owner's manual I quoted AND PROVIDED A LINK TO is direct from the Armscor USA web site. That's as up-to-date as it gets. Nowhere in the owner's manual or on the specifications page to which you link does it say that you can only fire Armscor brand ammunition, or that you can't safely fire +P ammunition.

As it happens, I have known the folks at Armscor USA for many years, I have tested many of their firearms, and I have assisted them in editing and translating some of their literature. I also own an M200 and an M206. I'm sure you are aware that +P is not a caliber, it is an indication of ammunition pressure. The owner's manual clearly allows for firing any .38 Special ammunition that's loaded to industry standards.

SAAMI is the industry standard. The SAAMI book for pistol and revolver ammunition lists pressure standards for .38 Special +P ammunition. Therefore, any ammunition that doesn't exceed those pressures is "in accordance with industry standard practice."

Going beyond that, I have had this exact discussion with the folks at Armscor USA. Their position is that the M200/M206 revolvers are safe to fire .38 Special +P, but that doing so on a regular/prolonged basis may result in accelerated wear on the firearm. Which is hardly a surprise, because all manufacturers will tell you the same thing.
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Old August 7, 2023, 01:58 PM   #46
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I'm so sick of .38 Special Plus P stuff!

It's like manufacturers have developed a brand new caliber instead of just saying you can shoot hot ammunition in their .28 Special guns. Slick marketing for dull minds.
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