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Old November 5, 2022, 11:10 PM   #1
Dashunde
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Long 10mm vs short 5.56

I’m kicking around buying a CMMG Banshee in 10mm, but I wonder how well the ballistics of a long 8” 10mm compare to a short 10” 5.56 on meat and bone? I tend to carry alternating Underwood 150gr JHP and 140gr monolithic. Both are 1500fps out of 5” iirc.
All of my 5.56 is bulk Federal 55gr XM193.

I already have a couple of nice 10” AR’s, but I also have a G29, G20, G40 mos and a DW Razorback.. so the Banshee 10mm is really calling out to me, but other than shared mags is there any tangible advantage in the Banshee over the 5.56’s I currently own?
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Old November 6, 2022, 06:29 AM   #2
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What is the range for intended use? I ran data at the muzzle and 100yds. If you plan to shoot to 200 or 300yds that is a very different use case imho. As well as if this is intended for indoor or outdoor use.

Well, out of a 10in barrel xm-195 55g is going 2767 fps with 933fl-lb of energy. At 100yds it is going 2401 fps with 704 ft lbs of energy.

A 10mm 150g jhp cor-bon out of an 8in barrel is going 1446fps with 696 ft lb on energy at the muzle, and at 100yds is going 1078fps with 387ft-lb of energy.

With that said, while not quiet, the 10mm will have a lot less muzzle blast, which i would lean heavily towards if you intend this for indoor use. I dont like short barrel 5.56 in general, they rattle my teeth.

The way i would think about it is this.5.56 is somewhat frowned upon as a deer cartridge, although i feel it is adequate under the right circumstances. However 10mm is often a go to for bear defense. 10mm is also legal for deer where i live, while 5.56 is not. And i would really not want to have to hunt or defend myself from a bear with a 5.56 While purely circumstantial i feel it has some relevance and speaks to the capabilities of the cartridges for hunting and or defensive use.

Personally, my vote is 10mm
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Old November 6, 2022, 02:14 PM   #3
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Here's an example to consider, when looking at the energy of different rounds for various purposes...

A .45-70 and a .22-250 can be loaded to identical Ft/Lbs of muzzle energy. IDENTICAL.

This is because energy figures are numbers on paper derived from math formulas. They represent a value, but are not the entire picture.

Ask yourself, which would you choose, to stop a large, dangerous beast such as a bear or buffalo, the .22 cal or the .45 cal, when the energy is identical??

I would go with the bigger bullet, but, that's just me...

Muzzle blast is the result of how much powder you are burning, the "size of the hole in the pipe" and distance from your face.

A quick look in a Hornady manual shows the 10mm burns about 15gr powder in its heaviest loads and a .223 burns about 25gr or so. I would expect the greater powder charge to have a larger "feeling" muzzle blast, and the closer to your face the muzzle is, the greater the effect you feel.
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Old November 6, 2022, 09:23 PM   #4
Dashunde
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Excellent info from both of you, thanks.
The CMMG would be an outdoor item, 100 yards or less, generally defensive from huge furry problems - it seems I may move to Northern Idaho, if not we’ll be there 6mo of the year, spring thru fall. We tend to wander around the boonies of Western Colorado to Moab on up into Idaho in a RZR and/or truck, camp out of it… the more North I go the more interested I become in more than just a G20.

The analogy of 45-70 and 22-250 is exactly the kind of head scratching that led me here - plus I need to justify a seemingly redundant additional pricey toy - I know that even a 5.56 with 25% of its powder flashing beyond the barrel whups the 10mm on paper, but I’m curious if a fast 55gr FMJ would be able to deposit its energy as effectively as a fat heavy 10mm at 20-50 yards out of a longer than normal barrel. I think I got my answer, and it’s likely still a better choice for short range two legged problems… and the CMMG is definitely a better option than an angry pistol or (short 5.56) for my wife/daughter.

I dont mind the blast of my current shorty 5.56’s, but sure as hell wouldn’t want to have to shoot it without ears on, be deaf for days, especially if there’s anything that’ll reflect the sound back for added insult (canyon wall, rock face, etc). The 10mm is no fun either, but its tolerable, kinda.

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Old November 6, 2022, 09:36 PM   #5
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The energy formula, is mass times velocity squared. So energy heavy favors velocity.

Momentum is a bit different its simply mass times velocity.

For the 223 55g above, it provides a momentum of 21 and a taylor KO score of 4

Whereas the 10mm provides a momentum of 30, with a taylor ko score of 12.

Ft-lb is not an end all be all. If you look at momentum or taylor score 10mm is much better. And there are other formulas people have created to estimate knock down power. None offer a definite answer imho. But it can give us some rough estimates or insights into how much energy a bullet has, how well it will retain than energy, and how effective it will be at transferring that energy.
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Old November 6, 2022, 11:16 PM   #6
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Aside from calculating energy, and its transfer (and yes, it an important and valid means of comparison between rounds) when considering the actual physical effect of the bullet, do not overlook the fact that it is physically a chunk of metal, that occupies space, displacing organs and leaving a hole behind it.

It is energy (as velocity) that gets the bullet to the vitals and through them, but don't discount the effect of the size and mass of the slug and the hole it makes.

All the factors play a part, some a bigger part than others...
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Old November 7, 2022, 12:53 AM   #7
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I feel the 223 is marginal to start with and severely reduced in effectiveness with a short barrel.

The 300 BO is not a long range gun to start with, but 10" barrel does not hurt it nearly as much as it would a 223. Finding the right ammo (bullet weight and construction) is very important when considering this round for serious use.

For short AR-15 based guns, the 350 Legend and the 45 cal rounds can retain a decent maximum effective range with a short barrel. And all three would be hard hitters at closer ranges even with a short barrel.

Of the PCCs, the 10mm is the only one that I would want to rely on to be more than a "fun gun" or a inside the house defensive round. However, the effectiveness of the 10mm is much less than the 350 Legend or the 45s.
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Old November 7, 2022, 10:53 PM   #8
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I'm also interested in the Banshee, but would be looking at 200 grains, or more, to take advantage of the 8" barrel.
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Old August 23, 2023, 06:23 PM   #9
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Fast forward 8 months..
I now live in ID. In light of the ATF's antics I bought a S&W 629 and Henry Big Boy in 44mag. Both have been lots of fun. The Big Boy is really small/light and packs a serious wallop with good ammo.. far more than any 10mm.
I highly recommend it, plus the Phoenix mount with a Holosun EPS Carry.

Observation: If I shoot a 3/8 thick 8 inch gong on chains at 50 yards with 5.56 it swings and wags around a bit regardless of which barrel length I use, similar results with decent 10mm, but if I shoot the same thing with the Henry using Underwood 245gr FMJ it'll flip the gong over and wrap the chains around the top bar.
As they say.. there's no replacement for displacement.

They should make the Banshee in 44
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Old August 23, 2023, 07:40 PM   #10
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Quote:
A .45-70 and a .22-250 can be loaded to identical Ft/Lbs of muzzle energy. IDENTICAL.
Quote:
Ft-lb is not an end all be all.
An interesting read off of Buffalo Bore's webpage discusses this topic a little further. Here is the link:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...uct_list&c=173
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Old August 24, 2023, 04:54 AM   #11
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I’d go 10mm, basically because I’m a huge fan of having carbines and handguns that can handle the same ammo. But in my case if I were in the same scenario as you it’d be my GP100 and my Henry BBS in .357 with a fairly stout 180gr XTP, or hot 158gr XTP. Plus I’d carry some standard.38sp for general plinking. Or if really big hairy beasts I’d bump up to the same setup in my .41mag.
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Old August 24, 2023, 09:30 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetinteriorguy View Post
I’d go 10mm, basically because I’m a huge fan of having carbines and handguns that can handle the same ammo. But in my case if I were in the same scenario as you it’d be my GP100 and my Henry BBS in .357 with a fairly stout 180gr XTP, or hot 158gr XTP. Plus I’d carry some standard.38sp for general plinking. Or if really big hairy beasts I’d bump up to the same setup in my .41mag.
When I first read that I interpreted "same setup" as a GP100 in .41. Please tell me Ruger hasn't been holding out on me. So which revolver would be the .41?

P.S. Carbine/handgun pairs in .22, .357, .41 and .45 Colt. Open to .32-20/.327 if funds become available.
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Old August 24, 2023, 10:12 AM   #13
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I’m liking what the op finally settled on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Old August 24, 2023, 02:07 PM   #14
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I bought a 10mm Banshee in December.
It's been back to the manufacturer for repair, twice, and I haven't shot it again since the second trip.
Assuming it's fixed, I'm not going to go into the issues I had.

My goal is to get 220gr bullets up to 1200fps from the 8" barrel, and I've been creeping up on that, after not getting very close with a couple of powders.
There aren't any 10mm bullets intended for velocities much higher than that, so driving light bullets to very high velocities, relative to the velocity window intended for a given bullet weight, doesn't make much sense.
It really seems to prefer 180gr bullets, shooting groups about half the size of those shot with 200s and 220s at fifty yards.
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Old August 24, 2023, 04:13 PM   #15
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My goal is to get 220gr bullets up to 1200fps from the 8" barrel,...
I can think of several cartridges that can do that, but they're all bigger than the 10mm. Sorry.
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Old August 24, 2023, 06:05 PM   #16
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Sorry? I don't think it's going to be a problem.
People are getting 200s to 1250 from five inches.
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Old August 24, 2023, 07:15 PM   #17
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Open to .32-20/.327 if funds become available.
I was able to purchase a Henry Big Boy in .327 at a very decent price with thoughts of trading it. I originally thought the guy said it was a .357 and told him I'd take it over the phone. Imagine my surprise.

Anyways, after scrounging around for loaded ammo, brass, bullets, etc., I was able to shoot it and found it to be a superb rifle and very accurate. I have decided to keep it and am searching for the right revolver to go along with it.
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Old August 25, 2023, 05:01 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ballardw View Post
When I first read that I interpreted "same setup" as a GP100 in .41. Please tell me Ruger hasn't been holding out on me. So which revolver would be the .41?

P.S. Carbine/handgun pairs in .22, .357, .41 and .45 Colt. Open to .32-20/.327 if funds become available.
Ah yes, my bad. In my .41mag I have two choices revolver wise, either my 6” or my 4” S&W model 57 no dash.
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Old August 25, 2023, 11:47 AM   #19
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My pairs run to single action pistols paired with lever action rifles. Too many cowboy movies growing up I suppose.
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Old August 25, 2023, 06:01 PM   #20
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I'm with ya Ballardw,

Op, congrats on the new additions, I am more of a 45Long guy but when you get up to these calibers they are fun for the smack they apply when wacking a gong or even a 2 liter.
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Old September 16, 2023, 04:10 PM   #21
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RickB
Quote:
My goal is to get 220gr bullets up to 1200fps from the 8" barrel
Look right here, and that's likely based on a 5" barrel. If you load your own maybe, if lucky, they'll tell you what powder and how much?
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Old September 17, 2023, 09:26 AM   #22
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At what point does the trade off for max performance compromise the reliability of the firearm? Why push a smaller cartridge to it’s limit or past when a larger one can accomplish more with less drama? I would think the 44 Magnum carbine would be tough to beat, especially if you could get a Trapper length version.
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Old September 17, 2023, 05:01 PM   #23
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Pumpkin, 220gr 10mm moving at 1200fps wouldn't be a whole lotta fun in a pistol. I run underwood's 140gr & 150gr Mono and HP in my G29, 20, 40MOS and a few DW 1911's.. its not bad in the larger/heavier pistols, but its zero fun in the 29. I shoot it just enough to stay practiced, ironically the 29 gets carried often.

The Banshee is a AR rifle platform (sort of), so wicked hot 10mm should be no issue and I too would be buying the hottest stuff I could find if I had bought one awhile back as I was considering.

Interestingly, the 44mag Henry Big Boy is really a very little boy, much smaller and lighter than an AR. It pairs really well with a S&W 629 5" Classic.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg AR and BigBoy sml.jpg (73.1 KB, 42 views)

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Old September 17, 2023, 06:32 PM   #24
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I mostly shoot 200grs @ 1000fps in my conventional 10mm handgun, but in a 5#, long-barreled "pistol", I want something closer to rifle ballistics, even if any 10mm load isn't really close to a real rifle.
The promise of the Banshee is a 10mm PCC that recoils like a blow-back 9mm, which is what most reviewers claim.
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