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Old July 15, 2023, 11:21 PM   #126
bac1023
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Me neither. It's a "close but no cigar" thing.
Not even close in my book. The HP is fragile, with mediocre accuracy and a horrendous trigger design.
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Old July 16, 2023, 12:01 AM   #127
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Regardless of how they were intended a century ago. The 1911 was designed around the 45 because that was the stipulation of the trial, not because it couldn’t work with other cartridges.
The fact that the 1911 was designed around a .45 caliber cartridge because that was a stipulation of the competition doesn't in any way alter the fact that the 1911 was designed around a .45 caliber cartridge. In fact, it was designed around a .45 caliber cartridge that was also designed by John M. Browning. The 1911 was not designed with any foresight into functioning with other cartridges, and it is well known that 1911s had a history of functional difficulties with the 9mm Parabellum cartridge.

Can the 1911 be made to work reliably with 9mm ammunition? Yes, it can, and most 9mm 1911s today are reliable. But the High-Power was designed around the 9mm Parabellum cartridge (for the same reason the 1911 was designed around a .45 caliber cartridge -- it was a stipulation of the project), and the High-Power is every bit as reliable and as accurate as the 1911 -- especially when considering only 9mm versions.

Before you unload on me -- I'm a 1911 guy. I own and carry 1911s, and when I engaged in shooting games as sport I competed with a 1911 (Para-Ordnance). I also own a couple of High-Power clones, so I am familiar with both pistols. They are both great pistols and, IMHO, both are timeless classics.
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Old July 16, 2023, 05:33 AM   #128
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I have many Browning Hi Powers, including multiple vintage models, competition models, and even one of the beefed up Practical models in 40S&W. I like the gun for its aesthetics and history. As a shooter, I think it leaves quite a bit to be desired in most cases.

My 9mm 1911’s from Wilson, Ed Brown, Nighthawk, and Guncrafter simply leave them far, far behind. I even have a Ruger 9mm 1911 that is awesome.

Obviously the Hi Power will have a capacity advantage. That being said, I also own many 2011’s in 9mm. My point is the 1911/2011 is just far superior. So much more can be done with the design and it’s way more durable to boot.

Obviously it’s a matter of personal preference, but there’s a reason why the 1911/2011’s dominant the competition world, along with CZ and CZ clones. The Hi Power is not remotely competitive.
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Old July 16, 2023, 06:30 AM   #129
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PSA had the Rock Island 1911 in 9mm on sale for $299 which I thought was a great price. If I didn't have a 1911 in 9mm already I would jump on that deal, at that price you can try it out for cheap.
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Old July 16, 2023, 08:48 AM   #130
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Some of you guys are clueless. If you truly think a Browning Hi Power will out shoot and/or be more durable than a good 9mm 1911, then you seriously need an education or wake up call.

The two platforms aren’t even in the same stratosphere. Regardless of how they were intended a century ago. The 1911 was designed around the 45 because that was the stipulation of the trial, not because it couldn’t work with other cartridges.
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It wouldn't have been the same gun, if designed around the 9mm cartridge.
Colt made some prototypes in an oddball 9.8mm cartridge, the whole gun scaled down for the smaller cartridge, and shopped it around in Europe, with no takers.

The Spanish Star pistols, a long line of sort-of 1911s, were scaled to their chambering, not being .45-sized guns with shorter barrels and butts, but slimmer slides with shorter strokes.

In my experience, the 1911 is much more reliable when chambered in .38 Super and 10mm, than 9mm and .40, as the two former cartridges are the same length as .45.
.40 is/was a very popular chambering in USPSA competition, and literally everyone loaded it a tenth of an inch longer than SAAMI specs to improve feeding in 1911-based pistols; loaded long, it wouldn't fit in anything else.
9mm has benefitted from decades of magazine development, each new design being plugged as the one that will work reliably; ours has a spacer at the back! But ours has a built-in feed ramp at the front!
Super and 10mm run perhaps more reliably than .45.
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Old July 16, 2023, 10:20 AM   #131
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I hear you and that was the case for many years. 9mm 1911 magazines have greatly improved over the years and especially the past 5-10 years.

Wilson Combat, which is likely the largest volume custom/semi custom builder now sells more 1911’s in 9mm and they do 45ACP.

Don’t get me wrong, I own more in 45ACP and likely always will. However, the 9mm 1911 has come a long, long way. For many years I wanted nothing to do with them. Nowadays, I feel they’re some of the nicest shooting and most accurate 9mms on the market.

Frankly, they’re some of the best shooting pistols on the market regardless of caliber.
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Old July 16, 2023, 11:06 AM   #132
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While the 1911 family was designed for .45 as specified by the Old Indian Fighters and Philippine veterans, Colt later did a good job setting it up for .38 Auto as the Super .38.

If you wanted to sponsor Team Mediocre with ammo or at least components, I would pick the Super. But hard economic reality is that if you want to shoot a lot, the current military caliber is the way to go. I have decent 9mm magazines and even have good feeding from the right .38 magazine.
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Old July 17, 2023, 03:52 PM   #133
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A while back, I got a Springfield 9mm 1911 thinking I could spare my ears a bit.
Wellll..... take a look

https://earinc.com/gunfire-noise-level-reference-chart/

Not much difference but the 9mm tested louder.
Well hell.
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Old July 17, 2023, 08:02 PM   #134
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The 9mm is a much higher pressure round. It’s generally louder and sharper sounding than 45ACP.
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Old July 18, 2023, 04:50 AM   #135
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Depending on the ammo and the gun a 9mm may also be breaking the speed of sound exiting the muzzle.
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Old July 18, 2023, 07:56 AM   #136
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The HP is fragile, with mediocre accuracy and a horrendous trigger design
It is. But it's also slender, has a very good grip for its capacity, and trigger is very easy to improve. And has a nice low bore axis -not the best, but nice anyway.

I do think the 1911 is by far a better gun. I just think it's a bit large for a 9mm, like using a .30/60 action for a .308.
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Old July 19, 2023, 03:32 AM   #137
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It is. But it's also slender, has a very good grip for its capacity, and trigger is very easy to improve. And has a nice low bore axis -not the best, but nice anyway.

I do think the 1911 is by far a better gun. I just think it's a bit large for a 9mm, like using a .30/60 action for a .308.
I’d call the Hi Power’s bore axis as mid level, much like the 1911. Sort of between a Glock and a classic Sig.

I wouldn’t call the 1911 large for 9mm at all. Certainly not as large as all the 9mm competition pistols on the market. Obviously to each their own.
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Old July 19, 2023, 05:20 AM   #138
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Not even close in my book. The HP is fragile, with mediocre accuracy and a horrendous trigger design.
I’m curious, just what is fragile about the HP? I have the FEG copy and find it a very nice reasonably accurate shooter, but I really don’t shoot it a lot so I’m wondering if there’s anything in particular I should watch out for. Probably the most interesting aspect I’ve found is how well balanced it feels, for an all steel gun it still feels light in my hand.
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Old July 19, 2023, 05:52 AM   #139
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I’m curious, just what is fragile about the HP? I have the FEG copy and find it a very nice reasonably accurate shooter, but I really don’t shoot it a lot so I’m wondering if there’s anything in particular I should watch out for. Probably the most interesting aspect I’ve found is how well balanced it feels, for an all steel gun it still feels light in my hand.
You said it yourself. They have thin frames, they shoot loose fairly easily, they can’t really be checkered due to how thin the frame is.

They weren’t even rated for +P ammo. Durable and robust aren’t words I’d use to describe the Hi Power. This is no Sig P210 we’re talking about, as far as comparisons to other old military pistols.
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Old July 19, 2023, 06:59 AM   #140
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They also wear their sears unusually fast. I'm talking Belgian guns here.
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Old July 20, 2023, 05:00 AM   #141
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Thanks for the info, interesting to know. I don’t shoot it much but do like the pistol. Most of my 9mm shooting is handled by my CZ75B-SA and my SA Hellcat since it’s my CC. I do also like my RIA 1911 in 9mm but don’t shoot it a lot either, I really need to rectify that situation since it’s a great little shooter.
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Old July 20, 2023, 07:29 AM   #142
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You said it yourself. They have thin frames, they shoot loose fairly easily, they can’t really be checkered due to how thin the frame is.

They weren’t even rated for +P ammo. Durable and robust aren’t words I’d use to describe the Hi Power
Anecdote Alert

I recall a couple of comments by users to that effect.
A Canadian said that the military match there required the standard pistol, no improvements allowed, "you may not even whip the grip with cord." It was not allowed to tighten the fit and it wouldn't do any good anyhow, it would soon shoot loose.

Jan Stevenson or one of his contributors referred to "the infamous Two Zed ammunition that eats Brownings."
But his coauthor used a tuned Browning for all purposes, competition, carry, and training. It did require maintenance and repair, he did have to replace his refined sear.
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Old July 20, 2023, 05:51 PM   #143
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An interesting and wide ranging discussion, so I'll share my 2¢ worth. I've been a fan of the Hi Power since the '60s, and have owned I don't know how many. They are a great pistol IMHO, but I would not describe them as particularly "heavy duty". In Olden Days, I shot all manner of ammo in some of mine, including hand loads that would probably be considered +P or +P+ now. I suffered no catastrophic failures, but admit I'm more circumspect now days about what ammo I use in Hi Powers. The slides and frames are a bit on the thin side, but the potential Achilles Heal I think about most is the barrel cam in the frame. I've seen the ugly photos of broken cams, and reports of the difficulty and expense of replacing them.

I have a 9mm 1911 or two. I'm not at all offended by the extra steel in these as compared to many other 9mm pistols. Kinda like all that extra steel in N-Frame S&Ws chambered in .38 Spcl. or .357. All that extra steel in the 1911 equates to soft recoil, even with the most energetic 9mm ammunition, and no concerns at all about durability. I've found the modern 9mm 1911s with the integrally ramped barrels, and using the excellent 9mm magazines available now days, has resulted in my 9mm 1911s being as reliable as 1911s chambered in the "proper" .45 ACP or 38 Super cartridges. Life is good..
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Old October 17, 2023, 05:54 PM   #144
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Hi Powers and 1911s, two great guns designed primarily by 1 great genius. I agree with many of the sentiments of other posters and have some observations to share.

1. Agreed, the 9mm hi power is in general more reliable than a 9mm 1911.
2. Ramped 1911s have helped increase reliability of 1911s with 9mm but the extra space in the magazine is an issue.
3. The 1911 trigger is better and more robust with the Sturrup around the magazine contributing to a smooth straight pull to the sear rather than the funny link in the slide required for the hi power.
4. Hi power magazine disconnects crap up the Hi Power trigger and the guns work better without them.
5. Slide mass is a factor in 1911 reliability. Shorter barrel 1911s with less slide mass run better in 9mm than full sized guns.
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Old October 17, 2023, 07:47 PM   #145
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Hi Powers and 1911s, two great guns designed primarily by 1 great genius.
The 1911 is entirely Browning's work.

Browning designed the prototype P.35, then passed away. The design was finished by FN engineers, and made to include features demanded by the French, who, after the gun was made the way they wanted, declined to purchase any.

FN named the pistol the Browning Hi Power "out of respect for Mr Browning" and no doubt to help with its market appeal.

Other than the initial prototype pistol (and perhaps a tool room gun or two) Browning had nothing to do with the finished gun, and if you look at pictures of the prototype, compared to the production Hi Power, that is obvious.
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Old October 18, 2023, 10:51 AM   #146
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I saw the Power cloner right now just released a "lite" version the other day...if anyone is interested
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Old October 18, 2023, 12:04 PM   #147
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Browning vs. 1911 debate, while interesting...

Still happy with my 9mm Bul 1911. It has about 5K through it, and accounts for about 60% of my shooting during recovery/rehab from the neck surgery over the last 8 months or so. It's soft, accurate and reliable.

I'd like to get one in 7.92x24.

I'm also still waiting for the 1.5 stack large frame 9mms to come out. Bueller? But Sig suing Springfield probably makes that a no-go for a while.
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Old October 18, 2023, 12:10 PM   #148
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Isn't the Hi-Power basically a 1.5 stack?
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Old October 18, 2023, 03:05 PM   #149
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Isn't the Hi-Power basically a 1.5 stack?
Double stack. 7 & 6 (13) and 7 & 8 (15). Definitely double stacked and since it is an odd number one stack is always going to be longer than the other.
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Old October 18, 2023, 06:31 PM   #150
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Isn't the Hi-Power basically a 1.5 stack?
No
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