Another bump in the night question: Ammo Capacity Vs Caliber

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I believe Chris Bird writes of an incident in one of his books where a lady ran an ongoing gun battle through her garden with a 12ga double and multiple intruders (due to vegetation, she apparently thought she was only firing at one guy who kept moving and kept in the fight through multiple reloads and was successful).

[C0untZer0]

The story you are referencing is about Barbara Thompson in Fort Worth, TX.


Chris's daughters live in Illinois, and one lives in Chicago.

His bio at Privateer Publications says "He is particularly incensed that Katy who lives in Chicago is unable to own a handgun legally for protection."

He must have been happy when the Supreme Court over turned Chicago's gun ban.

But he can still be incensed that his daughters are unable to carry handguns legally for protection.

[3kgt2nv]

I personally would choose caliber. my bump gun is a 1911 that i have shot over 25000 rounds thru in every type of excersize and competition i can think off so that if it does become necessary to shoot i can do it from any angle or postion without having to first assume the correct stance and use two hands for control.

i can fire right or left handed with both eyes open with muscle memory putting the gun on target within seconds of raising the gun from a hoster even faster if already drawn.

where we cannot practice shoot at people we can practice shooting moving objects and doing so accurately and consistantly is not easy. if your not willing to practice this type of shooting (idpa or other leagues) capacity is useless as your hit percentage will be dismal at best when adrenalin and stress are factored in.

think of police shootings where 15 or 30 rounds are fired and they only score one or three hits.

If your going to put your life on the line to defend yourself and family you should have enough dedication to properly train yourself for that moment when it is necessary.

I have shot many different formats and with many different style firearms. Its all about ability to hit what your shooting at when you pull the trigger.

perfect example is people that get the 20+ dollar ultra high end hollow points for home defense or carry but only practice with the cheapest stuff they can buy. how do you know how that high end stuff shoots and how it responds if you dont practice with it.

[MLeake]

Sounds good, but how often have you shot after somebody has severely startled you; or after you've been struck, stabbed, or shot; or after your heart rate is severely elevated?

There are some variables that are hard to train for.

Here's one I'd like to do:

Start with dummy guns, and a fit training partner. Physically grapple for weapon control. Do this several times, until breathing is really ragged. Some physical pain might even be good.

Now go to the bench, pick up live weapons, and immediately put a timed double tap on target.

[3kgt2nv]

true but in a bump in the night situation hopefully you are not waking up to the intruder being right on top of you.

personally I have 2 full size dobermans 1 is 98 pounds the other 92 pounds that are normally quiet. one bark in the night has me out of bed and alert. the way my home is layed out my family is secure on the floor above mine so unless they are in the house its more of a controlling the situation and at worst stopping the intrusion.

now in a grappling situation it is true that it might turn out that you loose the firearm and or become injured in the struggle or surprised before you have the ability to arm yourself. this is where the strategy of sweeping the house becomes dangerous. once you venture from a position of safety you give up the security of knowing what is in your immediate surrounding.



this is the best tactical accessory for my house that i have ever had.

[Frank Ettin]

Amateurs think equipment,
Students think techniques,
Experts think tactics.

This is an important and basic truth. It's sometimes phrased: mindset, skill set; toolset, in that order.

We have a way of looking at things as a hardware matter. After all, equipment and tools are fun. But a lot of things really come down to a matter of software.

Pretty much any quality, reliable gun, in a caliber of consequence and that you can manage, will do the job if you practice and train so that you know how to do the job. No type of gun will make up for not knowing how to do the job.

As Jeff Cooper used to say, "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully."

[Kevin Rohrer]

Any caliber that arts with a '4' or more is better. After you get the gun, get some quality training with it.

[3kgt2nv]

Any caliber that arts with a '4' or more is better. After you get the gun, get some quality training with it.

so by this i should discount
9mm, 9mm+p 9mm p++
38special, 38 special+p
.357
.357 sig
22 microjet
etc etc etc

any gun can be used defensively if you know proper use and the limitations of the caliber.

[MLeake]

3kgt2nv, whether you end up actually grappling a BG isn't my point. My point is that you are assuming that under a full adrenaline dump, you will perform like you do at the range.

My point is that inducing such an adrenaline dump immediately prior to shooting might be an eye opener for many people.

And, frankly, some aggressive weapon retention training is not a bad way to get some adrenaline flowing.

[3kgt2nv]

3kgt2nv, whether you end up actually grappling a BG isn't my point. My point is that you are assuming that under a full adrenaline dump, you will perform like you do at the range.

My point is that inducing such an adrenaline dump immediately prior to shooting might be an eye opener for many people.

And, frankly, some aggressive weapon retention training is not a bad way to get some adrenaline flowing.

I understand what you were talking about with the adrenalin and I also am aware that there is a large percentage of the gun owning world that if they got the drop on the "bad guy" would rather have them get out of their house via quickest way or police vs pulling the trigger.

well it is true you can never train for everything you can train as much as possible so that if it does come time to use your gun you dont have to think about firing it and on muscle memory and training will be able to do so.

take a fencing class and tell me how much time you have to think with the adrenalin going. you dont you react based on how you were trained and your skill. same with a firearm.

But yes adrenalin can cause a wide variety of reactions, fear, panic, the fight or flight response, shakes, tunnel vision, etc.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer

...After you get the gun, get some quality training with it.

An excellent idea. And something you might get from training is an understanding that going to investigate a "bump in the night" might not always be the best idea and that sometimes there are better ways to deal with the situation.

[Justice06RR]

For a bump in the night I cannot imagine needing more than 6-8 rounds. I have never heard of an extended gunfight inside a house that was occupied. I guess a drug house might be an exception, but when shooting started I am persuaded the BG would want to put distance between himself and the house.
Jerry

That may be so, but you never know how many intruders/BG's are trying to enter your residence. it could be one, or 3. Most of your typical shooters, including myself are not experts so the more rounds the better. You would have to consider the possibility of missing the first 2-3 shots depending on the situation.

If you live in Miami, Atlanta, Philly, or LA, you better rethink on the ammo capacity more than caliber IMO. Yes there are gangs and druggies that work in groups. My ex's house was robbed by at least 2 people in broad daylight. Good thing she was at work.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

In TX, after the fires, gangs of looters came to some houses. I posted a story about it. No shots fired as the teenage girl's true grit scared them off. However, the point is that you can get multiple bad guys.

The average crime doesn't mean that YOU will always be faced with the average crime.

[Deaf Smith]

The average crime doesn't mean that YOU will always be faced with the average crime.

And 'average' means 50 percent were ABOVE that stat.

I'm not a cop or anything like that but I've held one guy at gun point for breaking into my parents house, with another guy chased down a purse snatcher in the Virgin Islands, twice have given first aid to car wreck victims, seen car roll overs right in front of me, a broadside collision right in front of me, two cars run off the road (one hitting a tree), drove several peoples cars out of a flood that was above the floorboards of their cars, and other such oddities.

Now is that average for a geek programmer?

Guys don't plan on 'average', ever. Carry a REAL good first aid kit in your cars, good fire extinguisher, as well as your favorite roscoe or two. And then get some CPR/first aid training besides self defense training (I'm in my companies ERT Hazmat team just so I could get alot of free training.)

Skip this .45 .vs. 9mm or ammo capacity vs. Caliber or whatever debates.

Prepare for interesting times and if they are no so interesting, well that's ok, but just don't assume your life will be 'average' or the problems you face will be 'average'.

Deaf

[Nitesites]

One is none, two is one, three is some.

[C0untZer0]

The bump in the night scenario is different from natural disasters.

I think it's really challenging when someone has a very limited budget and they need 1 firearm to do everything. Night-stand, carry, truck gun, everything gun.

But I still think a shotgun is a better tool to fend off looters after a natural disaster than a high-cap pistol. But even so - I would want nine rounds not five.

A rifle of some kind may be better yet... but probably not the best first choice for when something goes bump (or crash) in the night.

[Denezin]

For my B.I.T.N. gun its a single shot h&r pardoner 12g sawn to 18 3/4 inches and has a limb saver recoil pad. and ammo is number 4 3 in mag buckshot. best 140 bucks ever spent for HD gun.

[Kevin Rohrer]

any gun can be used defensively if you know proper use and the limitations of the caliber.

That's why I suggested taking the caliber limitation out of that equation.

[ltc444]

The key to winning is
1) planning. Have a plan and execute it.
2) practice the plan.
3) Train with your weapons
4) Have a will to survive.
5) Plan for the aftermath. (Good Lawyer)

These points are not in order of importance.

[MLeake]

Those are all valid keys, ltc444.

Mindset is most important, I am inclined to agree.

However, mindset, tactics, and awareness will only help so much when you have a 5 shot revolver and multiple, armed intruders break in.

Hardware may be the least important consideration, but that does not make it an unimportant consideration.

[C0untZer0]

One thing that I was curious about concerning Sarah McKinley shooting a home invader in Oklahoma recently is that she had to sell off most of her deceased husbands guns to pay for his funeral, she kept a shotgun and one pistol.

She had trained with the pistol and according to her, she knew how to shoot it. She had only fired the shotgun once and it was a number of years before the incident. She claimed that she wasn't even sure that the shotgun would fire but when Martin began pounding on the door - she got her shotgun and held it at the ready (the pistol was beside her because as she said she wasn't even sure the shotgun would fire).

The shotgun did it's job, as did she in aiming it. I wish I knew what model shotgun, single shot break open? auto-loader? I don't know. I also don't know what size shot she was using but the shot hit Martin just behind and above the ear.

I wish I could find out why she chose the shotgun as the primary instead of the pistol.

Using a weapon you're not sure of is certainly questionable tactics but it almost seemed like she intuitively knew that the shotgun was the most powerful thing she had at her disposal and that's what she gravitated to.

[Nanuk]

Beside my bed is my 870 12 gauge with 7 slugs in the tube and six on the side, 2 bright flashlights. On the head board is either my Glock 40 or My Kimber 45.

After 32 years of LE/Military I want the guns I know will work, will stop anything I need to worry about.

I live in the country alone with my wife and critters, over penetration is not a concern.

[ngragg]

[Rifleman 173]

Get some range time in for yourself. Learn to shoot 2 to the chest and 1 to the head. This is an excellent shooting strategy called The Mozambique Shooting Scenario. No matter what caliber of gun you have, 2 in the chest and 1 to the head ruins the bad guy's day. Spread out the chest shots about a hand's width apart and remember to allow for time for shock to set into place just to be safe. Repeat as needed until the bad guy stops what he is doing.

[Camar]

From experience a .38 Spl. will do the job.




'